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Re: RE: Carbon Copy Delay FX (help?)

Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 2:47 pm
by JMCecil
So it sounds like you are struggling with the difference between line and instrument level on your outboard gear. Here is a quicky explanation.
http://www.ovnilab.com/articles/linelevel.shtml

Keep in mind that your Carbon Copy is designed to work with low/instrument output devices (guitar) and that your Moog is an EXTREMELY hi output/line level device. What you typically need to do is really dial the moog output way down then feed the output of the carbon copy into a pre-amp/amp to get it back up to line level. Your Rhodes works because it has an instrument out.

When you describe the "high end" problem, it's hard to tell if you are getting that due to clipping, or because of the normal frequency range of the carbon copy (again it's made for a guitar). A Rhodes, even though it has a higher register than a guitar, is already greatly reduced high frequency content. Your Moog is sending tremendously more high frequency information at a much higher level.

Re: RE: Carbon Copy Delay FX (help?)

Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 2:57 pm
by monsterjazzlicks
Hi PepperPig,

Well I found the BOX but there is no MANUAL. I keep, and look after, all of my musical properties but it would seem strange that it came with no documentation at all?! Though maybe it did (I bought it a couple of years ago).

I watched some more demonstration You Tube videos on it this morning and it appears (unbeknown to me!) that if you open up the device, there are (what people call) 'trimming pots' with which you can modify how the TOP END FREQ's react (or words to that effect). Though hardly anyone discusses this and it is only mentioned in passing. Nobody has demonstrated this and in all instances owners have RETAINED all settings as per FACTORY default. But this would mean changing the inner-settings each time I use it on my MOOG and on my RHODES.

Thanks a lot,

Paul

Re: RE: Carbon Copy Delay FX (help?)

Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 3:12 pm
by monsterjazzlicks
Thank you JMC,

I really appreciate you joining in the thread.
JMCecil wrote:So it sounds like you are struggling with the difference between line and instrument level on your outboard gear. Here is a quicky explanation. http://www.ovnilab.com/articles/linelevel.shtml
I will have a good read later.

But quickly just off the top of my head:
JMCecil wrote:Keep in mind that your Carbon Copy is designed to work with low/instrument output devices (guitar) and that your Moog is an EXTREMELY hi output/line level device.
Ok, so the MOOG is still HIGH LEVEL even when I come out of the LO OUTPUT (-10dB). Incidentally, the VOLUME SLIDER on the MOOG was (in all recordings) set to FULL (ie 9/10).
JMCecil wrote:When you describe the "high end" problem, it's hard to tell if you are getting that due to clipping, or because of the normal frequency range of the carbon copy (again it's made for a guitar).
Well if you mean the CUBASE FADERS running into the RED, then no. So no DIGITAL CLIPPING.
JMCecil wrote:A Rhodes, even though it has a higher register than a guitar, is already greatly reduced high frequency content. Your Moog is sending tremendously more high frequency information at a much higher level.
Sure, the MOOG produces far more COMPLEX an output than RHODES or GUITAR. However, if I ran the RHODES thru a (say) RING MODULATOR, and then into the MXR DELAY, then would I have the same kind of issue again (because of the complex FREQ's) although of course this would not be as a result of LINE LEVEL.

Many thanks,

Paul

Re: RE: Carbon Copy Delay FX (help?)

Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 3:14 pm
by monsterjazzlicks
JMC,
JMCecil wrote:What you typically need to do is really dial the moog output way down then feed the output of the carbon copy into a pre-amp/amp to get it back up to line level. Your Rhodes works because it has an instrument out.
Do you think a PREAMP would solve the issue and are they expensive please?

Ta,

Paul

Re: RE: Carbon Copy Delay FX (help?)

Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 4:26 pm
by JMCecil
monsterjazzlicks wrote:JMC,
JMCecil wrote:What you typically need to do is really dial the moog output way down then feed the output of the carbon copy into a pre-amp/amp to get it back up to line level. Your Rhodes works because it has an instrument out.
Do you think a PREAMP would solve the issue and are they expensive please?

Ta,

Paul
hah! I wish I could give you a yes/no answer to either question.

Preamps cost from $40 to $40,000 .....
The answer to "will it solve the problem", maybe sometimes. :lol:

Basically, different pedals and different output/input combinations work well or don't work well. You never know until you try.
Your -10 pad setting should have let the Moog at least attempt to work well with the Carbon Copy. Didn't know that the Mutli had that output to be honest.

I think you misunderstand what I was saying about the frequency thing. the CC was designed to work within the frequency domain of a guitar. A Rhodes has very similar frequency content to a guitar. A Moog does not ... not even close. Analog gear is especially subject to this type of design. You really make it to work with a specific input level and frequency range. Digital is much more forgiving on that front. One of the reasons EchoPlexs were/are so sought after for keyboards is because the builtin pre-amp makes it a chameleon for dealing with both input and output levels (also the pre sounds awesome all by itself if you like that smooth rolloff sound some pres have).

However, the Moog should work well with a BBG delay, so I'm assuming you have level problems more the frequency problems. But, it's something to consider. Also, using mismatched gear sometimes creates odd effects that you can actually use. It's a total crap shoot.

I don't know the delays that are included with your version of Cubase, but what you are trying to achieve with the CC is band reduction and degradation on each repeat. Plus it has modulation, which allows you to create subtle chorusing, or crazy detuned echos. I think you should have one with modulation, but I don't know if you have one with an analog mode that replicates BBG.

Re: RE: Carbon Copy Delay FX (help?)

Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 8:12 pm
by monsterjazzlicks
Hi JMC,
JMCecil wrote:Preamps cost from $40 to $40,000 .....The answer to "will it solve the problem", maybe sometimes. Basically, different pedals and different output/input combinations work well or don't work well. You never know until you try. Your -10 pad setting should have let the Moog at least attempt to work well with the Carbon Copy. Didn't know that the Mutli had that output to be honest.
Yep, it has a HI (+12dB) and LO (-10dB). The LO produces only about half the artifacts of the HI. Why do you call it a "pad" please?
JMCecil wrote:Analog gear is especially subject to this type of design. You really make it to work with a specific input level and frequency range. Digital is much more forgiving on that front.
Just to check, are you referring to the MULTI or the MXR CC here please?
JMCecil wrote:However, the Moog should work well with a BBG delay, so I'm assuming you have level problems more the frequency problems. But, it's something to consider. Also, using mismatched gear sometimes creates odd effects that you can actually use. It's a total crap shoot.
On my very first UPLOAD ("East Quay Float"), I did not use the MXR at all (just a tiny amount of CUBASE REVERB). Fellow member Lukas criticised it (I wanted feedback so this was not unwelcomed!), but to me it sounded not too bad, and way CLEANER than the following UPLOADS (with MXR).
JMCecil wrote:I don't know the delays that are included with your version of Cubase, but what you are trying to achieve with the CC is band reduction and degradation on each repeat. Plus it has modulation, which allows you to create subtle chorusing, or crazy detuned echos. I think you should have one with modulation, but I don't know if you have one with an analog mode that replicates BBG.
PepperPig kindly recommends both MAGNENTO and QUADRAFUZZ (which I have yet to try out).

Yes, the MXR CC has a a MOD switch which adds a little quasi-CHORUSING to REGENERATED signal (but not the ORIGINAL tone).

Could you please explain this sentence a little more:
JMCecil wrote:. . .band reduction and degradation on each repeat.
Best,

Paul

Re: RE: Carbon Copy Delay FX (help?)

Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 8:22 pm
by monsterjazzlicks
MXR Carbon Copy Delay Manual:

http://www.jimdunlop.com/files/manuals/M169_man_WEB.pdf
CC.png
MXR_CC
(270.21 KiB) Not downloaded yet

Re: RE: Carbon Copy Delay FX (help?)

Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 8:47 pm
by JMCecil
I was referring to the CC when I said that analog gear is subject to design choices. So, when someone designs a guitar pedal, the types of filtering that occurs and circuit configuration will be voiced for a guitar. As I've said before, even though it is counter intuitive, a Rhodes or Wurly are actually voiced very similar to a guitar and seem to work well with guitar pedals.

A bucket brigade circuit loses frequency content and resolution on each echo. So the longer it goes, the less like the original sound the echo is.

Re: RE: Carbon Copy Delay FX (help?)

Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 10:28 pm
by JMCecil
monsterjazzlicks wrote:Hi JMC,
Why do you call it a "pad" please?
Sorry I missed answering this in my other reply. Technically, the output is probably not a pad ... I just refer generically to leveling switches that provide reduction in level as a pad. Probably because most pre-amps I've used have a level reduction switch labeled pad. The point is that you have a way to provide an attenuated signal to the pedal that is more in line with the level it wants. I think of that as padding the signal for possibly bad reasons.

Re: RE: Carbon Copy Delay FX (help?)

Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 12:14 am
by PeppaPig
Putting to one side the line/output/(expected)guitar signal level issues I really don;t think going to all this trouble is going to be worth it. As I said wearlier there are plenty of delays even with Cubase Artist - you can also download Steinberg's vintage tape emulation delay free (Karlette) http://www.steinberg.net/en/support/uns ... vol_2.html

If you're new to all this then trying to confuse yourself with outboard effects is pointless - particularly as delays are one of the effects where, IMHO, the type you use doesn't make that much of a difference - it's how you use it that counts.

Re: RE: Carbon Copy Delay FX (help?)

Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 12:34 am
by monsterjazzlicks
JMC,
JMCecil wrote:I was referring to the CC when I said that analog gear is subject to design choices. So, when someone designs a guitar pedal, the types of filtering that occurs and circuit configuration will be voiced for a guitar.
Ok, thanks a lot.
JMCecil wrote:As I've said before, even though it is counter intuitive, a Rhodes or Wurly are actually voiced very similar to a guitar and seem to work well with guitar pedals.
And also mechanically both are constructed around having PICK UP's.

Cheers,

Paul

Re: RE: Carbon Copy Delay FX (help?)

Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 12:36 am
by monsterjazzlicks
JMC,
JMCecil wrote:Sorry I missed answering this in my other reply. Technically, the output is probably not a pad ... I just refer generically to leveling switches that provide reduction in level as a pad.
Oh ok I see. So like, as you say, a derivative of the word padding.

Ta,

Paul

Re: RE: Carbon Copy Delay FX (help?)

Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 12:59 am
by monsterjazzlicks
Hi PepperPig,
PeppaPig wrote:Putting to one side the line/output/(expected)guitar signal level issues I really don;t think going to all this trouble is going to be worth it.
Well I am going to try feeding the MULTI into the MXR with it's VOLUME set as LOW as I can get it. It is certainly worth a shot at least.
PeppaPig wrote:As I said wearlier there are plenty of delays even with Cubase Artist - you can also download Steinberg's vintage tape emulation delay free (Karlette)
Oh wow, I never knew that you could obtain such downloads for FREE on the Steinberg site! Cheers.
PeppaPig wrote:If you're new to all this then trying to confuse yourself with outboard effects is pointless - particularly as delays are one of the effects where, IMHO, the type you use doesn't make that much of a difference - it's how you use it that counts.
Mmm, ok. I guess I am trying to gather whether, very generally speaking, which one is BEST in the hardware vs. software debate. Though have spent three or so days messing with the MXR, I am getting more comfortable with getting the DELAY FX I want from it. Just a shame I/we have had to wade thru all this other nonsense in the mean time. Also, I am getting a feel for what WORKING METHOD best suits me.

I found the MAGENTO and QUADRAFUZZ:
Mag.png
MAG
(578.9 KiB) Not downloaded yet
Quad.png
QUAD
(963.41 KiB) Not downloaded yet
Many thanks,

Paul

Re: RE: Carbon Copy Delay FX (help?)

Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 1:02 am
by lukasbrooklyn
by the way, i would trust your ears, unless you want some signature modulation aka soundtoys echoboy or ohmboys, most delays will do and if it sounds good... you know ;]

Re: RE: Carbon Copy Delay FX (help?)

Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 1:10 am
by monsterjazzlicks
Hi Lukas,
lukasbrooklyn wrote:by the way, i would trust your ears, unless you want some signature modulation aka soundtoys echoboy or ohmboys, most delays will do and if it sounds good... you know ;]
Cheers.

I am going to continue experimenting with the MXR CC because it does not seem to cause any issues (as far as my ears can tell [and I spent a great deal of time running comparisons]) in the MIDDLE and LOW registers. However, I will take a look at the VST FX options within CUBASE ARTIST.

Best,

Paul

Re: RE: Carbon Copy Delay FX (help?)

Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 1:59 am
by monsterjazzlicks
JMC,
JMCecil wrote:Plus it has modulation, which allows you to create subtle chorusing, or crazy detuned echos.
I used this exact MOD FX in the INTRO and ENDING of my last UPLOAD ("Funky Slap Back"). It sounds like rapid detuning.

Paul

Re: RE: Carbon Copy Delay FX (help?)

Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 2:00 am
by JMCecil
by the way, I'm not sure what amp you are running the multi to, or if you are going DI. If you are micing an amp and that amp has an FX loop, that is the best possible method to use the MX.

Also, if you have a multi-input output audio interface, you can use the external FX buss in Cubase to route to the MX, which will solve a lot of the leveling issues you may be having.

Re: RE: Carbon Copy Delay FX (help?)

Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 2:13 am
by monsterjazzlicks
JMC,
JMCecil wrote:by the way, I'm not sure what amp you are running the multi to, or if you are going DI. If you are micing an amp and that amp has an FX loop, that is the best possible method to use the MX.
No amp for recording = Just MULTIMOOG, to MXR, to CI2+ CUBASE INTERFACE, to PC.

I have never gigged the MULTIMOOG (yet). I have a FENDER DeVILLE amp (heavier than my RHODES!) which would probably be better than my MACKIE (powered) SRM (350's I think they are) speakers.

I have a YAMAHA MG (something or other) small-ish desk. I am thinking of using this in my home set-up as my soundcard only has 2 x IN's and it's driving me mad swapping leads all the time!
JMCecil wrote:Also, if you have a multi-input output audio interface, you can use the external FX buss in Cubase to route to the MX, which will solve a lot of the leveling issues you may be having.
The CI2+ has 2 x IN's and 2 x OUT's (for instruments and powered monitors respectively). So nothing fancy as such, just meat & potatoes.

Thanks,

Paul

Re: RE: Carbon Copy Delay FX (help?)

Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 2:18 am
by JMCecil
So, on the mackie, run the multi into that and use the effect sends/returns to go to the CC. Or use a TRS insert cable so you can use the mackie faders and such to control the level going to the CC.

Re: RE: Carbon Copy Delay FX (help?)

Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 2:19 am
by JMCecil
By the way, learning how outboard gear works in what setups is a huge thing if you ever plan to play out. It is well worth the time. Like most things, this initial stage of learning will get easier and make more sense as you go. Then you will get fast at identifying sounds in your chain and likely suspects for their occurrence.

Re: RE: Carbon Copy Delay FX (help?)

Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 2:33 am
by monsterjazzlicks
JMC,
JMCecil wrote:By the way, learning how outboard gear works in what setups is a huge thing if you ever plan to play out. It is well worth the time. Like most things, this initial stage of learning will get easier and make more sense as you go. Then you will get fast at identifying sounds in your chain and likely suspects for their occurrence.
Well when I gig my NORD piano and a couple of MODULES etc, all running thru the YAMAHA MG desk and into the pair of MACKIES, it is never really a problem. And recording the NORD piano and ROLAND XV5050 module seems to be fine.

But since trying to record my YAMAHA DX7 and the MOOG (ie vintage) into CUBASE, this is when the problems have arisen. And then compounded with the addition of hardware stomp-boxes! I wonder how well the MINIMOOG might record? That is for a later date . . .

Best,

Paul

Re: RE: Carbon Copy Delay FX (help?)

Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 2:38 am
by monsterjazzlicks
Thanks JMC,
JMCecil wrote:So, on the mackie, run the multi into that and use the effect sends/returns to go to the CC. Or use a TRS insert cable so you can use the mackie faders and such to control the level going to the CC.
The MACKIES are the SPEAKER's.

The YAMAHA desk is the MG82CX:

http://uk.yamaha.com/en/products/proaud ... mode=model

So hopefully it will do all of the above?

Cheers,

Paul

Re: RE: Carbon Copy Delay FX (help?)

Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 2:41 am
by JMCecil
Yes. That mixer has a send and master return. Go to the mixer with the multi and put the cc in the aux send and return

Re: RE: Carbon Copy Delay FX (help?)

Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 2:46 am
by monsterjazzlicks
JMC,
JMCecil wrote:Yes. That mixer has a send and master return. Go to the mixer with the multi and put the cc in the aux send and return
Ok, thanks. I will test it over the weekend. Are you thinking this could be a way to ATTENUATE the MOOG pre-MXR?

Spent nearly 2 x hours trying to get a SAXOPHONE sound out of the damn synth tonight! :?

Best,

Paul

Re: RE: Carbon Copy Delay FX (help?)

Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 2:47 am
by JMCecil
Yes you will get much finer control using aux return