Connect Pro MIDI Tracks-Audio Tracks Sync issue

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Macster
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Connect Pro MIDI Tracks-Audio Tracks Sync issue

Post by Macster » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:34 pm

I am working with Cubase 9.5.21 and VST Connect Pro 4. My remote musician friend records to an audio track while listening to the MIDI tracks I have already recorded. (My MIDI stuff is outboard gear, not a VST instrument) Both recording and playback are working wonderfully with no problems when I'm connected to him. However, if I am not connected to him on VST Connect Pro, the MIDI tracks are out of sync with the Audio tracks he recorded during playback. This makes mixing and editing on my own almost impossible. If we connect again everything is fine. But when disconnected the problem arises again. Is there a way during recording or playback to prevent this problem?
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Windows 10 - Intel i5 8th Gen Processor (8400) - 16GB RAM -One 128GB M2 SSD, Two 500GB SSD - Cubase 9.5.41 - VST Connect Pro - Groove Agent4 4.2.40 - Korg Kronos - Hammond XK1c - Korg M-50 - Discodsp Discovery & OBxd64 - HALion SonicSE - PadShop Pro - Retrologue - Too many other plugins and rack synths to mention.

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musicullum
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Re: Connect Pro MIDI Tracks-Audio Tracks Sync issue

Post by musicullum » Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:32 am

I don't quite understand this yet.
- you say all is fine and in sync when connected. Does this include playing back what you recorded with respect to the MIDI sound while connected?
- when not connected, is there any difference when you switch off or remove the VST Connect plugin?
- do you work with click (metronome)? If so, is the recorded audio in sync with the click, and/or is MIDI playback in sync?
musi

Macster
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Re: Connect Pro MIDI Tracks-Audio Tracks Sync issue

Post by Macster » Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:02 pm

Thanks for the response, Musicullum, and great question!
Everything is fine when connected, both during recording and playback as far as what I'm hearing is concerned. However, as seems normal, while recording or playing back while connected, the moving cursor on the MIDI tracks is ahead of what I'm actually hearing in the control room. I assume that this is a result of the compensation for the inevitable latency when working in real-time over the Internet. I have both the 'talk-back' and 'rehearsal buttons' in VST Connect set to OFF while recording. All status lights are green in VST Connect Pro 4.

So, in actuality, it seems that the the audio that is being recorded from my remote client is actually being recorded at the place where the cursor is as it moves. (which is slightly a head of the MIDI tracks as I hear them) This means that when I am not connected via VST Connect, the audio is actually late as referenced to the MIDI tracks when listening to playback and when looking visually in the main tracks window.

As far as the metronome goes, it is perfectly in sync with MIDI and audio when recording or playing back while I'm connected on VST Connect Pro. However, when not connected the metronome follows the MIDI tracks. Therefore, the recorded audio is late compared to the metronome just like it is late when compared to the MIDI tracks. This means that the MIDI tracks are always in sync with the metronome whether I'm connected using VST Connect or not. The audio is never visually in sync in the main window whether connected or not. However, it is audibly in sync when connected. Of course this problem is fixable after recording by simply moving the audio tracks back in time to sync with the MID tracks. But it seems like I'm missing something simple.

FYI, I have tried the "Constrain Delay Compensation" button in Cubase, and also "Asio Guard". Neither seemed to help. So the settings I am using are: Constrain Delay Compensation-OFF. Asio Guard-OFF. Direct Monitoring OFF. Activate Multiprocessing-ON.

I hope this info helps. If it's not clear, please let me know and I'll rephrase.

Again, I really appreciate your response on this issue. Your help is much appreciated!

-mike
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Windows 10 - Intel i5 8th Gen Processor (8400) - 16GB RAM -One 128GB M2 SSD, Two 500GB SSD - Cubase 9.5.41 - VST Connect Pro - Groove Agent4 4.2.40 - Korg Kronos - Hammond XK1c - Korg M-50 - Discodsp Discovery & OBxd64 - HALion SonicSE - PadShop Pro - Retrologue - Too many other plugins and rack synths to mention.

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musicullum
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Re: Connect Pro MIDI Tracks-Audio Tracks Sync issue

Post by musicullum » Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:13 am

Thanks for the detailed description. You say "the metronome follows the MIDI tracks. Therefore, the recorded audio is late compared to the metronome just like it is late when compared to the MIDI tracks."
This is not how it's supposed to be. Both visual and recorded audio should be in sync during recording and playback. This makes it a bit difficult to analyse. I am not 100% sure about external MIDI, but for audio playback, there should not be a noticable shift neither visual nor audible.
Could you try without MIDI? Just a click and let the Performer say "one two three four" or the like and see if there are still any shifts? Thanks for your patience.
musi

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Re: Connect Pro MIDI Tracks-Audio Tracks Sync issue

Post by Macster » Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:45 am

Hey, thank YOU for YOUR patience, Musicullum!

I didn't get time to try your experiment today but I'll certainly try it over the weekend and get back to you.

Again, I appreciate your help on this!

-mike
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Windows 10 - Intel i5 8th Gen Processor (8400) - 16GB RAM -One 128GB M2 SSD, Two 500GB SSD - Cubase 9.5.41 - VST Connect Pro - Groove Agent4 4.2.40 - Korg Kronos - Hammond XK1c - Korg M-50 - Discodsp Discovery & OBxd64 - HALion SonicSE - PadShop Pro - Retrologue - Too many other plugins and rack synths to mention.

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musicullum
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Re: Connect Pro MIDI Tracks-Audio Tracks Sync issue

Post by musicullum » Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:06 pm

I‘ve been thinking about your case - and I should have been thinking earlier :-)
Using external MIDI can‘t work, because it is beeing triggered by your local playback engine, while other playback sent to the Performer is beeing triggered way ahead of that (internal playback sent to the Performer when you hit play, but which you don‘t hear; local playback therefor starts after a second or so depending on Remote Delay while Performer data have already arrived). In general, the Performer can not play to what you actually hear, that would be jamming, which VST Connect doesn‘t support.
So you will have to record your external MIDI to an audio track beforehand, then all should be fine.
Good luck!
musi

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Re: Connect Pro MIDI Tracks-Audio Tracks Sync issue

Post by Macster » Wed May 09, 2018 8:19 pm

That's what thought! And thanks for continuing to care about this issue. I certainly did realize the delay in starting when my remote client was recording and figured that would be an issue for real-time recording and playback using outboard MIDI gear for playback. I just thought that Steinberg would have thought about this situation and created a fix for it. So I get it now. I really don't want to turn all of my MIDI tracks to audio until the final audio mixdown. Until that time, I still want the option of editing those tracks. So I have been duplicating the audio tracks that correspond to the ones that were recorded.I can then move those duplicated tracks in time so that they sync with the MIDI tracks. It's really not too tough. The main problem is that I have to have two versions of all of the remote tracks; one for my own playback, editing and mixing, and another for when in-session with my remote client. Thanks again for your help. It has really made a difference. And I feel good that I know the problem is actually a problem and not something I missed along the way.

I don't know if this next question resides in your mental database, but I'll give it a shot. I will type it separately in the area right below this one.
Last edited by Macster on Thu May 10, 2018 6:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Windows 10 - Intel i5 8th Gen Processor (8400) - 16GB RAM -One 128GB M2 SSD, Two 500GB SSD - Cubase 9.5.41 - VST Connect Pro - Groove Agent4 4.2.40 - Korg Kronos - Hammond XK1c - Korg M-50 - Discodsp Discovery & OBxd64 - HALion SonicSE - PadShop Pro - Retrologue - Too many other plugins and rack synths to mention.

Macster
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Re: Connect Pro MIDI Tracks-Audio Tracks Sync issue

Post by Macster » Wed May 09, 2018 8:25 pm

Again a question that regards having outboard MIDI gear.

I know that there is a solo defeat option in Cubase. However, I need something that would work like a mute defeat; meaning that I need a track that will never mute even when I solo another track.

Reason: All of my MIDI synths' audio goes into a mixer that I have defined as an external instrument in Cubase. So when I solo a MIDI track it, of course, mutes all the other tracks which includes my external instrument track. At that point, since all of my synths' audio outputs are going into the external instrument, I can't hear the track I have soloed. At that point, I have to also solo my external instrument track which can only be done in Cubase Mix Console. Is there a solution to this problem?

Thanks again, musicullum!
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Windows 10 - Intel i5 8th Gen Processor (8400) - 16GB RAM -One 128GB M2 SSD, Two 500GB SSD - Cubase 9.5.41 - VST Connect Pro - Groove Agent4 4.2.40 - Korg Kronos - Hammond XK1c - Korg M-50 - Discodsp Discovery & OBxd64 - HALion SonicSE - PadShop Pro - Retrologue - Too many other plugins and rack synths to mention.

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musicullum
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Re: Connect Pro MIDI Tracks-Audio Tracks Sync issue

Post by musicullum » Thu May 10, 2018 10:06 am

Macster wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 8:25 pm
Again a question that regards having outboard MIDI gear.

I know that there is a solo defeat option in Cubase. However, I need something that would work like a mute defeat; meaning that I need a track that will never mute even when I solo another track.

Reason: All of my MIDI synths' audio goes into a mixer that I have defined as an external instrument in Cubase. So when I solo a MIDI track it, of course, mutes all the other tracks which includes my external instrument track. At that point, since all of my synths' audio outputs are going into the external instrument, I can't hear the track I have soloed. At that point, I have to also solo my external instrument track which can only be done in Cubase Mix Console. Is there a solution to this problem?

Thanks again, musicullum!
All existing mute/solo options are explained here (afaik):

https://steinberg.help/cubase_pro_artis ... ute_c.html

No mute defeat I'm afraid...but I also don't see why solo defeat doesn't work for you, as "In this mode the channel is not muted when you solo another channel."
musi

Macster
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Re: Connect Pro MIDI Tracks-Audio Tracks Sync issue

Post by Macster » Thu May 10, 2018 11:35 pm

Thanks again for the response.
Great concept and I'm sure that it would work with normal instruments. However, an external instrument track seems not to act like a regular track. First of all, the M and S buttons are not active on an external instrument track in the project window. This means that muting or soloing has to be done using the buttons in the mix console. There I can alt-command-click the solo button and set it to solo defeat. (making it an orange button) But that track still mutes when soloing another track. The mute button in the mix console does not show that it's muted, (no yellow coloring) but the Ext instrument track is muted nonetheless. Is this a feature or a bug? Since the Ext Instrument doesn't work like any of the other types of tracks, it might be a bug. Either way, good thinking and a very logical approach to my problem.

So thanks much!
-mike
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Windows 10 - Intel i5 8th Gen Processor (8400) - 16GB RAM -One 128GB M2 SSD, Two 500GB SSD - Cubase 9.5.41 - VST Connect Pro - Groove Agent4 4.2.40 - Korg Kronos - Hammond XK1c - Korg M-50 - Discodsp Discovery & OBxd64 - HALion SonicSE - PadShop Pro - Retrologue - Too many other plugins and rack synths to mention.

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