I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

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Re: I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

Post by mitchiemasha » Sun Sep 18, 2016 11:28 pm

Wicked. I'll test this later. If anything, we're all getting a deeper understanding of how each of these settings affect each other.
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Re: I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

Post by TNM » Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:43 am

tedannemann wrote:
Sun Aug 28, 2016 10:16 am
As I said you have to differentiate between "slicing" and "time-stretching" (in its classical sense).
Cubase doesn't slice per se, just stretches the audio material. Stretching always generates artifacts (depending on the algorithm quality). But as soon as you start using Elastique Pro in its standard equivalent setting there is no difference between DAWs using it (actually the stretching usually null).

However be aware that Elastique Pro v3 was implemented in Cubase 8.5 first and not Cubase 8. If you are comparing stretching between 8 and 8.5 there are audible differences.

Logic incorporates "slicing" in it's auto flex time mode. So if you are flexing a drum loop in Logic it usually chooses automatically the "slicing" algorithm (it's actually called "Slicing"). As said in Ableton Live the standard mode is "Beats" which is "slicing" (and not stretching).

In other words you can't compare stretching to slicing quality wise in view of drums. As Cubase doesn't use "slicing" in it's musical mode (automatically stretching or just changing the loop with the time stretching arrow tool) you have to watch out what you compare it too.

If you want slicing like in Logic or Ableton Live you "have to" use the slicing at hit points method. You can easily create a shortcut for it or even create a macro for your special needs.
This is not an issue, it is more of handling error then ;-).

However if you still have different outcomes between different computers with the same Cubase version - there must be some error of course - but obviously in your settings then.

I am happy to test it with your drum loop on my system. I am still confident that you can at least get the same (usually better) results with Cubase than with Logic or Ableton Live. You could activate the download option and soundcloud or deactivate hidden mode.
spot on, but this is the point.. all the other daw's have an auto slicing mode that works when you change tempo automatically.

I am demoing cubase 9 at present and it sounds absolutely awful, slowing down any kind of drum loop or drum audio file, when using elastique (or any mode available in the entire program).
Transient loss, phases.

There is another issue.. if you import a loop that is already at the correct tempo and musical mode is enabled, it affects the sound of the file.. cubase is not smart enough to reference the original audio when it has detected it is the same tempo as the project (clearly evidenced in the tempo display).
I tested this today with a kick loop that i exported from groove agent at 130bpm, in an 130bpm project. Disabling musical mode and it sounded exactly as exported.. enabled, every few kicks, every so often, you can hear some mush clearly. Not good!

So out of all the DAW's, once again, STILL, cubase has the absolute worst drum/transient material time stretch when used in real time.. I compared every daw yesterday stretching two drum files and 2 synth files.. cubase only sounds great on the synth stuff...

Studio one sounded great on everything, just choose elastique "sound" for the synths and "drum" for the, er drums.

Logic just choose slicing or rhythm for the beats and complex for the synths - perfect

same with live

pro tools is actually not the best.. it is NOT using z plane elastique as some people think but rather "elastic audio" and their own(or izotope's) algorithms.. with big stretches on poly stuff, the poly mode is not the best, but the rhythm mode is great for beats. I choose x form for pro tools which takes a sec to render, when it's time to mix down.. and it sounds wonderful on synths and instruments. So overall, yes it still sounds much better than cubase.
Point is, all these daw's have a way to change tempo on the fly as much as you want, and the drums sound good. Cubase can't do it, simple as that.

You don't think this is an oversight? A big one at that?

PS i should add, cubase is actually not the worst, Dp9.5 is.. the very worst by a large margin. Cubase is second.
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Re: I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

Post by jimmys69 » Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:39 am

Seems Cubase is not for you. Change tempo on the fly? I have to laugh at that because I record live musicians. There is no need for that in the way I work yet I know many do with Cubase.

Great to hear you opinion tho. :)
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Re: I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

Post by Raphie » Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:47 am

You are aware that if you LOOP 4 or 8 beats you will get mushy random artifacts on monitoring. This happens on all transient material, with short monitoring loop points.
Try copying over a longer period and extend your looppoints.
Also, in general, when you program your material yourself, why bother with above? And not just keep stuff midi or export at the correct BPM in the first place, talking loops and 130BPM it seems you’re into EDM? You will get a lot more gratifaction learning to program these yourself. Or if you already do, export at the right BPM in the first place. Just a tip, as this seems to bother you for more than a year already,
TNM wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:43 am
tedannemann wrote:
Sun Aug 28, 2016 10:16 am
As I said you have to differentiate between "slicing" and "time-stretching" (in its classical sense).
Cubase doesn't slice per se, just stretches the audio material. Stretching always generates artifacts (depending on the algorithm quality). But as soon as you start using Elastique Pro in its standard equivalent setting there is no difference between DAWs using it (actually the stretching usually null).

However be aware that Elastique Pro v3 was implemented in Cubase 8.5 first and not Cubase 8. If you are comparing stretching between 8 and 8.5 there are audible differences.

Logic incorporates "slicing" in it's auto flex time mode. So if you are flexing a drum loop in Logic it usually chooses automatically the "slicing" algorithm (it's actually called "Slicing"). As said in Ableton Live the standard mode is "Beats" which is "slicing" (and not stretching).

In other words you can't compare stretching to slicing quality wise in view of drums. As Cubase doesn't use "slicing" in it's musical mode (automatically stretching or just changing the loop with the time stretching arrow tool) you have to watch out what you compare it too.

If you want slicing like in Logic or Ableton Live you "have to" use the slicing at hit points method. You can easily create a shortcut for it or even create a macro for your special needs.
This is not an issue, it is more of handling error then ;-).

However if you still have different outcomes between different computers with the same Cubase version - there must be some error of course - but obviously in your settings then.

I am happy to test it with your drum loop on my system. I am still confident that you can at least get the same (usually better) results with Cubase than with Logic or Ableton Live. You could activate the download option and soundcloud or deactivate hidden mode.
spot on, but this is the point.. all the other daw's have an auto slicing mode that works when you change tempo automatically.

I am demoing cubase 9 at present and it sounds absolutely awful, slowing down any kind of drum loop or drum audio file, when using elastique (or any mode available in the entire program).
Transient loss, phases.

There is another issue.. if you import a loop that is already at the correct tempo and musical mode is enabled, it affects the sound of the file.. cubase is not smart enough to reference the original audio when it has detected it is the same tempo as the project (clearly evidenced in the tempo display).
I tested this today with a kick loop that i exported from groove agent at 130bpm, in an 130bpm project. Disabling musical mode and it sounded exactly as exported.. enabled, every few kicks, every so often, you can hear some mush clearly. Not good!

So out of all the DAW's, once again, STILL, cubase has the absolute worst drum/transient material time stretch when used in real time.. I compared every daw yesterday stretching two drum files and 2 synth files.. cubase only sounds great on the synth stuff...

Studio one sounded great on everything, just choose elastique "sound" for the synths and "drum" for the, er drums.

Logic just choose slicing or rhythm for the beats and complex for the synths - perfect

same with live

pro tools is actually not the best.. it is NOT using z plane elastique as some people think but rather "elastic audio" and their own(or izotope's) algorithms.. with big stretches on poly stuff, the poly mode is not the best, but the rhythm mode is great for beats. I choose x form for pro tools which takes a sec to render, when it's time to mix down.. and it sounds wonderful on synths and instruments. So overall, yes it still sounds much better than cubase.
Point is, all these daw's have a way to change tempo on the fly as much as you want, and the drums sound good. Cubase can't do it, simple as that.

You don't think this is an oversight? A big one at that?

PS i should add, cubase is actually not the worst, Dp9.5 is.. the very worst by a large margin. Cubase is second.
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Re: I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

Post by TNM » Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:17 am

Raphie wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:47 am
You are aware that if you LOOP 4 or 8 beats you will get mushy random artifacts on monitoring. This happens on all transient material, with short monitoring loop points.
Try copying over a longer period and extend your looppoints.
Also, in general, when you program your material yourself, why bother with above? And not just keep stuff midi or export at the correct BPM in the first place, talking loops and 130BPM it seems you’re into EDM? You will get a lot more gratifaction learning to program these yourself. Or if you already do, export at the right BPM in the first place. Just a tip, as this seems to bother you for more than a year already,
TNM wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:43 am
tedannemann wrote:
Sun Aug 28, 2016 10:16 am
As I said you have to differentiate between "slicing" and "time-stretching" (in its classical sense).
Cubase doesn't slice per se, just stretches the audio material. Stretching always generates artifacts (depending on the algorithm quality). But as soon as you start using Elastique Pro in its standard equivalent setting there is no difference between DAWs using it (actually the stretching usually null).

However be aware that Elastique Pro v3 was implemented in Cubase 8.5 first and not Cubase 8. If you are comparing stretching between 8 and 8.5 there are audible differences.

Logic incorporates "slicing" in it's auto flex time mode. So if you are flexing a drum loop in Logic it usually chooses automatically the "slicing" algorithm (it's actually called "Slicing"). As said in Ableton Live the standard mode is "Beats" which is "slicing" (and not stretching).

In other words you can't compare stretching to slicing quality wise in view of drums. As Cubase doesn't use "slicing" in it's musical mode (automatically stretching or just changing the loop with the time stretching arrow tool) you have to watch out what you compare it too.

If you want slicing like in Logic or Ableton Live you "have to" use the slicing at hit points method. You can easily create a shortcut for it or even create a macro for your special needs.
This is not an issue, it is more of handling error then ;-).

However if you still have different outcomes between different computers with the same Cubase version - there must be some error of course - but obviously in your settings then.

I am happy to test it with your drum loop on my system. I am still confident that you can at least get the same (usually better) results with Cubase than with Logic or Ableton Live. You could activate the download option and soundcloud or deactivate hidden mode.
spot on, but this is the point.. all the other daw's have an auto slicing mode that works when you change tempo automatically.

I am demoing cubase 9 at present and it sounds absolutely awful, slowing down any kind of drum loop or drum audio file, when using elastique (or any mode available in the entire program).
Transient loss, phases.

There is another issue.. if you import a loop that is already at the correct tempo and musical mode is enabled, it affects the sound of the file.. cubase is not smart enough to reference the original audio when it has detected it is the same tempo as the project (clearly evidenced in the tempo display).
I tested this today with a kick loop that i exported from groove agent at 130bpm, in an 130bpm project. Disabling musical mode and it sounded exactly as exported.. enabled, every few kicks, every so often, you can hear some mush clearly. Not good!

So out of all the DAW's, once again, STILL, cubase has the absolute worst drum/transient material time stretch when used in real time.. I compared every daw yesterday stretching two drum files and 2 synth files.. cubase only sounds great on the synth stuff...

Studio one sounded great on everything, just choose elastique "sound" for the synths and "drum" for the, er drums.

Logic just choose slicing or rhythm for the beats and complex for the synths - perfect

same with live

pro tools is actually not the best.. it is NOT using z plane elastique as some people think but rather "elastic audio" and their own(or izotope's) algorithms.. with big stretches on poly stuff, the poly mode is not the best, but the rhythm mode is great for beats. I choose x form for pro tools which takes a sec to render, when it's time to mix down.. and it sounds wonderful on synths and instruments. So overall, yes it still sounds much better than cubase.
Point is, all these daw's have a way to change tempo on the fly as much as you want, and the drums sound good. Cubase can't do it, simple as that.

You don't think this is an oversight? A big one at that?

PS i should add, cubase is actually not the worst, Dp9.5 is.. the very worst by a large margin. Cubase is second.
sorry sunshine saw this topic for the first time ever today when i did a simple google search on "cubase time stretch sounds bad on drums".

I am into all sorts of music.

I am simply stating a fact that cubase time stretch sounds bad on drums. it's really that simple. Why i need or don't need it is not the concern, nor are my musical aspirations or decisions on how I do my drums, whether myself or using a loop if i'm in a hurry.

It's amazing how personal and disgusting people get, attacking one's compositional skills and telling them how to work (@Raphie).
as far as your loop and transient point, no, that's not what i am talking about.

Anyway, i adjusted some hitpoints to be accurate, used the slice at hitpoints feature, and then changed the tempo to the target, and it keeps automatically in time this way. Unfortunately there can be pops here and there, so then you have to go into the editor again, select all slices and make crossfades. it works, and is the best way to change the timing of drum loops.. but there is no auto mode like other daw's and my point remains factual and relevant.

I am simply demoing the Cubase 9 demo to see if i wanted to upgrade from 8.5, that's all, and i noticed some issues with the quality of the TS continuing from 8. I got around it in the past by rewiring live to it and doing all my drums in there when i needed stretching, as it was quick and perfect automatic result every time.
I'll upgrade, as there are too many improvements elsewhere, but i'll continue to use pro tools for the majority of my work.

I am also experience quite some gui slowdown with OS 12.12.6 and Cubase 9.0.3.0... even in small projects, there are delays to clicking and scrolling.. the whole gui feels sluggish.. But that's for another topic.

Just because someone doesn't hang around a forum 24.7 doesn't mean they don't know what they are doing. I have tons of real world experience and owned a lovely pro studio back when i used pro tools HD. Been doing this for 26 years now, going on 27 thanks :)
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Re: I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

Post by Raphie » Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:43 am

No one is telling you how to work. It really depends on what your objective is.
Is it solving the “random mush” in loops? I gave you potential 2 reasons why that happens and 2 suggestions on how to solve that.
What you do with that is totally yours. The 3rd, more holistic advise is that when you create instead of use existing material you have full control, preventing these issues full stop. I’m not making a judgement call on that, just saying you can avoid your issue full stop.
When your post was purely theoretical, not preventing you to work, then my reply did not add any value.
I still wouldn’t put it down exclusively to the algo, there are often other things that come into play as mentioned by others before.
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Re: I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

Post by TNM » Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:25 pm

what i did with slicing solved the mush. The reason it happens is because what i said myself, in my case.. not what you said. I don't think you seem to be able to grasp that, sadly.

Regardless, slicing at (sometimes need to be modified) hitpoints is the answer for now. Done!
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Re: I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

Post by TNM » Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:40 am

Slicing is a lot more time consuming and harder to do when the loop is more complex.. in fact.. i spent an hour today just trying to get one drum loop to sound good sliced (even without stretch), and i couldn't get it anywhere near as good as logic/pro tools/ableton/S1 auto slicing to tempo feature..

so for altering the speed of drums to project tempo, i maintain cubase is very far behind. It's a shame, i hope they change it and add a properly tuned rhythm algorithm.
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