I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

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Re: I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

Post by vanpapeer » Thu Sep 08, 2016 7:00 am

Any engineers that are willing to help this out??

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Re: I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

Post by vanpapeer » Sat Sep 10, 2016 4:44 am

Any ideas, guys?

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Re: I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

Post by mitchiemasha » Sat Sep 10, 2016 12:35 pm

I have the solution for you... Use Ableton instead. If that is working for you and not Cubase. Problem solved!

Otherwise get the latest version and try it, make sure all your settings are right. If you're still getting an issue and you want a steinberg engineer to help out, you need to open a ticket.
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Re: I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

Post by jimmys69 » Sun Sep 11, 2016 3:26 am

vanpapeer wrote:Any ideas, guys?
Yeah I have an idea. Stop disregarding those on the forum who are trying to help you and submit a report to Steinberg instead of complaining here.

Sorry but I find your approach quite annoying and I am sure other members here are now ignoring you because of the way you are handling this.

Best to you! Seriously. :)
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Re: I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

Post by jamescolah » Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:34 am

jimmys69 wrote:
vanpapeer wrote:Any ideas, guys?
Yeah I have an idea. Stop disregarding those on the forum who are trying to help you and submit a report to Steinberg instead of complaining here.

Sorry but I find your approach quite annoying and I am sure other members here are now ignoring you because of the way you are handling this.

Best to you! Seriously. :)


Well said jimmys69 - I spent a lot of time (in my two posts) giving him all the advice and workarounds to resolve his minor issue but it has obviously all been ignored so enough's enough and as they say "You can take a horse to water but you can't get them to drink." :(

Kind regards

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Re: I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

Post by vanpapeer » Sun Sep 11, 2016 6:04 pm

jamescolah wrote:
jimmys69 wrote:
vanpapeer wrote:Any ideas, guys?
Yeah I have an idea. Stop disregarding those on the forum who are trying to help you and submit a report to Steinberg instead of complaining here.

Sorry but I find your approach quite annoying and I am sure other members here are now ignoring you because of the way you are handling this.

Best to you! Seriously. :)


Well said jimmys69 - I spent a lot of time (in my two posts) giving him all the advice and workarounds to resolve his minor issue but it has obviously all been ignored so enough's enough and as they say "You can take a horse to water but you can't get them to drink." :(

Kind regards

James Colah

http://www.jamescolahproductions.com/
http://www.facebook.com/jamescolahproductionsgb
http://www.twitter.com/jamescolah
While I appreciate your attempt at trying to help me, your "advice" wasn't much, since the issue I have at hand is technical and directly affects my work-flow.

At a technical standpoint, if an algorithm adds unwanted artifacts to your end-result, how is that okay?

Besides, every producer has different standards. And apparently, I give a damn about how weird the algorithm churns out the wave files that I want to manipulate.

Also, I have not ignored your "advice". If thanking you for your comments wasn't enough, I really don't know what to say.

It seems like you're in the habit of trying to shove your "advice" down people's throats.

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Re: I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

Post by vanpapeer » Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:59 pm

stingray wrote:
vanpapeer wrote:I tried time stretching on an acquaintance's computer, on the same Cubase Pro 8, which didn't create any weird artifacts like I mentioned.
If you are time stretching the exact same sample on the exact same version of Cubase using the exact same algorithm with the same project settings then you should get the same results. And this regardless of which computer you are using. It's probably the case, therefore, that when you time stretch on your friend's computer you are doing something different which causes a good result. Or put another way, when you do the time stretching on your own computer you are doing something different which causes a bad result. You'd probably be best trying to work out what you are doing differently. To this end:

How are you doing the time stretching? Are you referring to real-time time stretching in musical mode as a function of when you change the tempo?
If so, this works OK here on Cubase Pro 8. What version of Cubase Pro 8 are you using?

What is the bit resolution and sample rate of your project?
What is the original bit resolution and sample rate of your sample?
Are there any effects on the track?
vanpapeer wrote:My second issue is that when my algorithm is on the elastique Pro - Time mode on a selected sample, the transpose won't do anything to the pitch unless I'm in the Pitch mode.
That's strange. It doesn't happen here on Cubase Pro 8. What version number of Cubase Pro 8 are you using?
Sorry I couldn't get back to your earlier.

I'm assuming you've heard the samples that I've uploaded on Soundcloud.

"... you should get the same results... you are doing something different which causes a good result"

That's what I'm trying to find out here. I don't know how to do it "differently", as you mentioned.

I'm time stretching by toggling the '1' key on my keyboard where the cursor changes to the 'time stretch mode' and I pull on the end of the wav file to the desired length. The stretch itself is usually under 20%, most of the time since anything more than that causes degradation beyond recognition (at least to my liking).

I am currently using 8.0.1, and upgrading to any higher versions should not matter, since it's an Elastique Pro algorithm (the same one that is used in Pro Tools, and is considered the best one out there).

"What is the bit resolution and sample rate of your project?" → Doesn't matter since Cubase asks if you want to convert it to 44.1 from 48, for example. The sound would be very distorted and unusable without the conversion anyway.

"What is the original bit resolution and sample rate of your sample?" → Again, I'm aware of it enough as not to make this mistake.

Are there any effects on the track? → No.

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Re: I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

Post by mitchiemasha » Tue Sep 13, 2016 2:41 am

You do realise that using the tool to stretch in that manner has it's default stretch method set in the settings. I can't believe up until now you haven't tried to use time stretching via the other methods available, simply to check!!! The reason it sounded different on your friends cubase will be because they have the stretching tool set to a different default.
Last edited by mitchiemasha on Tue Sep 13, 2016 2:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

Post by mitchiemasha » Tue Sep 13, 2016 2:46 am

In the pool window you set the actual Tempo of the sample, put the sample in musical mode and pick which algorithm you want that individual sample to use. Now when you change the bpm of the track it will automatically lock into the track using the specific algorithm you require it to, have told it to use.
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Re: I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

Post by Sundayforsammy » Tue Sep 13, 2016 9:34 pm

Hi, Well if this algo works on one computer but doesn't have the same results on your computer/Cubase version then I would suggest it is your computer setup and/or Cubase version.

If I lost days and or weeks trying to solve a problem between 8/8.5/OS/or other unknown culprit then the first thing I would have done is update to 8.5 and check all the time stretching setting are correct and the same as the working computer, then if the problem still existed I would reinstall all my OS and software to make sure. I know it is a pain to reinstall everything but heck I always have a clean windows install ready using Acronis true image which takes 10 mins to setup and a spare hard drive to do it on so it does not affect my main drive. Simple quick testing this way saves weeks of 'kin around getting nowhere.
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Re: I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

Post by stingray » Tue Sep 13, 2016 11:34 pm

mitchiemasha wrote:You do realise that using the tool to stretch in that manner has it's default stretch method set in the settings. I can't believe up until now you haven't tried to use time stretching via the other methods available, simply to check!!! The reason it sounded different on your friends cubase will be because they have the stretching tool set to a different default.
+1

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Re: I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

Post by stingray » Tue Sep 13, 2016 11:42 pm

vanpapeer wrote:At a technical standpoint, if an algorithm adds unwanted artifacts to your end-result, how is that okay?
This is probably only a valid question if you are sure you know how to use the software.
vanpapeer wrote:I am currently using 8.0.1, and upgrading to any higher versions should not matter, since it's an Elastique Pro algorithm...
What method are you using to change the algorithm?
Last edited by stingray on Wed Sep 14, 2016 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

Post by sd1989 » Wed Sep 14, 2016 5:36 am

vanpapeer wrote:I am currently using 8.0.1
you should upgrade for sure

cubase 8 was buggy as hell for me until later upgrades
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Re: I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

Post by stingray » Wed Sep 14, 2016 11:09 am

sd1989 wrote:you should upgrade for sure...
Not with regard to this particular problem. Upgrading will probably make no difference to the time stretch method / algorithm being used by the OP.
Last edited by stingray on Wed Sep 14, 2016 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

Post by Grim » Wed Sep 14, 2016 11:26 am

I am currently using 8.0.1, and upgrading to any higher versions should not matter, since it's an Elastique Pro algorithm (the same one that is used in Pro Tools, and is considered the best one out there).
The algorithm may be the same but the implementation of it could still be flawed.
There was already a published timing fix from 8.00 to 8.01 that proves this.
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Re: I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

Post by stingray » Wed Sep 14, 2016 11:47 am

Just to mention that the OP is apparently using the time stretch tool, so the Elastique Pro algorithm has no influence on the problem.

Question to vanpapeer:
What method are you using to change the algorithm?

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Re: I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

Post by Grim » Wed Sep 14, 2016 12:40 pm

stingray wrote:Just to mention that the OP is apparently using the time stretch tool, so the Elastique Pro algorithm has no influence on the problem.

Although (confusingly) the preference to set the default algorithm for timestretch tool doesn't include Elastique, you can still select it in the info line and selecting tape type causes the pitch to change along with the stretch so it must be using it.

Have previously seen a Steinberg rep say that selecting realtime in prefs was actually using Elastique Pro.

It's abit of a mess really, very unclear, but anyhow the test above shjows that elastique must be in use.
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Re: I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

Post by stingray » Wed Sep 14, 2016 12:54 pm

Grim wrote:Although (confusingly) the preference to set the default algorithm for timestretch tool doesn't include Elastique, you can still select it in the info line and selecting tape type causes the pitch to change along with the stretch so it must be using it.
Forgot about that. Thanks for clarifying.

My guess is that Realtime has not always been used in the examples of the OP above.

Question to vanpapeer:
What method are you using to change the algorithm?

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Re: I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

Post by vanpapeer » Fri Sep 16, 2016 1:21 pm

First of all, thanks for all the replies.

And I have to strongly agree with Grim that it is very confusing indeed.
Grim wrote:It's abit of a mess really, very unclear, but anyhow the test above shjows that elastique must be in use.
So nobody knows for sure if selecting from this to time-stretch a wav file ↓

Image

is actually using the Elastique Pro?


And for the record...
mitchiemasha wrote:I can't believe up until now you haven't tried to use time stretching via the other methods available, simply to check!!! The reason it sounded different on your friends cubase will be because they have the stretching tool set to a different default.
I have tried just about every method of time-stretching. I've done 'audio process' through 'ctrl + right-click' on the wave file, but that is very time-consuming when working on 80+ tracks. It was simply a matter of work-flow and speed.

stingray wrote:
Grim wrote:Although (confusingly) the preference to set the default algorithm for timestretch tool doesn't include Elastique, you can still select it in the info line and selecting tape type causes the pitch to change along with the stretch so it must be using it.
Forgot about that. Thanks for clarifying.

My guess is that Realtime has not always been used in the examples of the OP above.

Question to vanpapeer:
What method are you using to change the algorithm?
And to stingray: I though I had specified how I time-stretch on my previous comment.
vanpapeer wrote:I'm time stretching by toggling the '1' key on my keyboard where the cursor changes to the 'time stretch mode' and I pull on the end of the wav file to the desired length. The stretch itself is usually under 20%, most of the time since anything more than that causes degradation beyond recognition (at least to my liking).
Which I thought it was elastique Pro - Time the whole time... the results were all the same for all the algorithms that were in the list from the 'info line'.

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Re: I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

Post by stingray » Fri Sep 16, 2016 2:39 pm

vanpapeer wrote:So nobody knows for sure if selecting from this to time-stretch a wav file... is actually using the Elastique Pro?
You would only be using elastique pro if you select Realtime for the time stretch tool in Preferences, and I'd hazard a guess that this is probably why there was a different result between your computer and your friend's computer.

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Re: I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

Post by mitchiemasha » Fri Sep 16, 2016 5:19 pm

I will clear this up again... although the algo says elastique up the top, that is the method assigned to the sample for when you adjust the BPM and it's in musical mode, have a look in the audio pool. The resize tool has it's default algorithm set in the preferences, as i mentioned earlier.

Make sure that is set to the option you require.

And... as Stingray points out.
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Re: I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

Post by mitchiemasha » Fri Sep 16, 2016 5:41 pm

Go to file/preferences/editing/audio... it's the last 2 boxes. The bottom box, 'Default Warping Algorithm' specifies the algo the sample will choose for itself when you load it into the pool or project from media bay. 'Time Stretch Tool Algorithm' needs to be set to 'Realtime'. If you are adjusting the Algorithm in the project window info line and, although the words change, the sound doesn't, this is 100% your issue.
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Re: I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

Post by Grim » Sat Sep 17, 2016 4:42 pm

stingray wrote:
vanpapeer wrote:So nobody knows for sure if selecting from this to time-stretch a wav file... is actually using the Elastique Pro?
You would only be using elastique pro if you select Realtime for the time stretch tool in Preferences, and I'd hazard a guess that this is probably why there was a different result between your computer and your friend's computer.
I will clear this up again... although the algo says elastique up the top, that is the method assigned to the sample for when you adjust the BPM and it's in musical mode, have a look in the audio pool. The resize tool has it's default algorithm set in the preferences, as i mentioned earlier.
Guys...I know you're trying to help, but you seem to have this wrong. Somewhere along the line this has changed and Steinberg haven't addressed it in the documentation.

Please try this for yourself:

Set a stretch tool algo in preferences that only stretches keeping pitch intact...NOT realtime.
(So by your reckoning this is the algo that will be used by time stretch tool)
Test it on an audio file and listen the result
Undo
Now select elastique tape in the info line
Test it on the same audio file
Result: This time the audio is stretched AND pitched so the elastique tape algo was used...regardless of the preference setting.
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Re: I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

Post by mitchiemasha » Sat Sep 17, 2016 6:00 pm

Yes... When the setting in the Time Stretch Tool box is Realtime, it uses which algo you have set for the sample. That's what is being said. If you haven't change the samples setting manually it will still be the one set via the default warp algo setting, from when you loaded the sample into the project.

Test it... on my set up... the latest Cubase...
...If TST Realtime + sample set as elastique time, the sample is stretched
...If TST Realtime + sample set as elastique tape, the sample is stretched with reduced pitch.
as expected.
...If TST Mpex Prev Quality + sample set as elastique time, the sample is stretched
...If TST Mpex Prev Quality + sample set as elastique tape, the sample is stretched
as expected. No reduced pitch (tape) as that algo isn't being used, the Mpex 1 is.

The last 2 tests show no difference yet the first 2 tests do. Everything is working exactly as I would expect it to.
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Re: I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

Post by Grim » Sat Sep 17, 2016 7:32 pm

Yes... When the setting in the Time Stretch Tool box is Realtime, it uses which algo you have set for the sample. That's what is being said.
Yes..I understand exactly what is being said thanks....I specified "NOT realtime in prefs" for my tests and my results.

So are after a little more digging I see the difference is that I also had musical mode active for the imported loop and in this case the elastique algo selected in the info line is the one that is used even when using TST.

So it seems musical mode will always use this setting for TST regardless of the TST preference.
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