I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

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Re: I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

Post by mitchiemasha » Sun Sep 18, 2016 11:28 pm

Wicked. I'll test this later. If anything, we're all getting a deeper understanding of how each of these settings affect each other.
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Re: I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

Post by TNM » Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:43 am

tedannemann wrote:
Sun Aug 28, 2016 10:16 am
As I said you have to differentiate between "slicing" and "time-stretching" (in its classical sense).
Cubase doesn't slice per se, just stretches the audio material. Stretching always generates artifacts (depending on the algorithm quality). But as soon as you start using Elastique Pro in its standard equivalent setting there is no difference between DAWs using it (actually the stretching usually null).

However be aware that Elastique Pro v3 was implemented in Cubase 8.5 first and not Cubase 8. If you are comparing stretching between 8 and 8.5 there are audible differences.

Logic incorporates "slicing" in it's auto flex time mode. So if you are flexing a drum loop in Logic it usually chooses automatically the "slicing" algorithm (it's actually called "Slicing"). As said in Ableton Live the standard mode is "Beats" which is "slicing" (and not stretching).

In other words you can't compare stretching to slicing quality wise in view of drums. As Cubase doesn't use "slicing" in it's musical mode (automatically stretching or just changing the loop with the time stretching arrow tool) you have to watch out what you compare it too.

If you want slicing like in Logic or Ableton Live you "have to" use the slicing at hit points method. You can easily create a shortcut for it or even create a macro for your special needs.
This is not an issue, it is more of handling error then ;-).

However if you still have different outcomes between different computers with the same Cubase version - there must be some error of course - but obviously in your settings then.

I am happy to test it with your drum loop on my system. I am still confident that you can at least get the same (usually better) results with Cubase than with Logic or Ableton Live. You could activate the download option and soundcloud or deactivate hidden mode.
spot on, but this is the point.. all the other daw's have an auto slicing mode that works when you change tempo automatically.

I am demoing cubase 9 at present and it sounds absolutely awful, slowing down any kind of drum loop or drum audio file, when using elastique (or any mode available in the entire program).
Transient loss, phases.

There is another issue.. if you import a loop that is already at the correct tempo and musical mode is enabled, it affects the sound of the file.. cubase is not smart enough to reference the original audio when it has detected it is the same tempo as the project (clearly evidenced in the tempo display).
I tested this today with a kick loop that i exported from groove agent at 130bpm, in an 130bpm project. Disabling musical mode and it sounded exactly as exported.. enabled, every few kicks, every so often, you can hear some mush clearly. Not good!

So out of all the DAW's, once again, STILL, cubase has the absolute worst drum/transient material time stretch when used in real time.. I compared every daw yesterday stretching two drum files and 2 synth files.. cubase only sounds great on the synth stuff...

Studio one sounded great on everything, just choose elastique "sound" for the synths and "drum" for the, er drums.

Logic just choose slicing or rhythm for the beats and complex for the synths - perfect

same with live

pro tools is actually not the best.. it is NOT using z plane elastique as some people think but rather "elastic audio" and their own(or izotope's) algorithms.. with big stretches on poly stuff, the poly mode is not the best, but the rhythm mode is great for beats. I choose x form for pro tools which takes a sec to render, when it's time to mix down.. and it sounds wonderful on synths and instruments. So overall, yes it still sounds much better than cubase.
Point is, all these daw's have a way to change tempo on the fly as much as you want, and the drums sound good. Cubase can't do it, simple as that.

You don't think this is an oversight? A big one at that?

PS i should add, cubase is actually not the worst, Dp9.5 is.. the very worst by a large margin. Cubase is second.
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Re: I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

Post by jimmys69 » Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:39 am

Seems Cubase is not for you. Change tempo on the fly? I have to laugh at that because I record live musicians. There is no need for that in the way I work yet I know many do with Cubase.

Great to hear you opinion tho. :)
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Re: I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

Post by Raphie » Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:47 am

You are aware that if you LOOP 4 or 8 beats you will get mushy random artifacts on monitoring. This happens on all transient material, with short monitoring loop points.
Try copying over a longer period and extend your looppoints.
Also, in general, when you program your material yourself, why bother with above? And not just keep stuff midi or export at the correct BPM in the first place, talking loops and 130BPM it seems you’re into EDM? You will get a lot more gratifaction learning to program these yourself. Or if you already do, export at the right BPM in the first place. Just a tip, as this seems to bother you for more than a year already,
TNM wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:43 am
tedannemann wrote:
Sun Aug 28, 2016 10:16 am
As I said you have to differentiate between "slicing" and "time-stretching" (in its classical sense).
Cubase doesn't slice per se, just stretches the audio material. Stretching always generates artifacts (depending on the algorithm quality). But as soon as you start using Elastique Pro in its standard equivalent setting there is no difference between DAWs using it (actually the stretching usually null).

However be aware that Elastique Pro v3 was implemented in Cubase 8.5 first and not Cubase 8. If you are comparing stretching between 8 and 8.5 there are audible differences.

Logic incorporates "slicing" in it's auto flex time mode. So if you are flexing a drum loop in Logic it usually chooses automatically the "slicing" algorithm (it's actually called "Slicing"). As said in Ableton Live the standard mode is "Beats" which is "slicing" (and not stretching).

In other words you can't compare stretching to slicing quality wise in view of drums. As Cubase doesn't use "slicing" in it's musical mode (automatically stretching or just changing the loop with the time stretching arrow tool) you have to watch out what you compare it too.

If you want slicing like in Logic or Ableton Live you "have to" use the slicing at hit points method. You can easily create a shortcut for it or even create a macro for your special needs.
This is not an issue, it is more of handling error then ;-).

However if you still have different outcomes between different computers with the same Cubase version - there must be some error of course - but obviously in your settings then.

I am happy to test it with your drum loop on my system. I am still confident that you can at least get the same (usually better) results with Cubase than with Logic or Ableton Live. You could activate the download option and soundcloud or deactivate hidden mode.
spot on, but this is the point.. all the other daw's have an auto slicing mode that works when you change tempo automatically.

I am demoing cubase 9 at present and it sounds absolutely awful, slowing down any kind of drum loop or drum audio file, when using elastique (or any mode available in the entire program).
Transient loss, phases.

There is another issue.. if you import a loop that is already at the correct tempo and musical mode is enabled, it affects the sound of the file.. cubase is not smart enough to reference the original audio when it has detected it is the same tempo as the project (clearly evidenced in the tempo display).
I tested this today with a kick loop that i exported from groove agent at 130bpm, in an 130bpm project. Disabling musical mode and it sounded exactly as exported.. enabled, every few kicks, every so often, you can hear some mush clearly. Not good!

So out of all the DAW's, once again, STILL, cubase has the absolute worst drum/transient material time stretch when used in real time.. I compared every daw yesterday stretching two drum files and 2 synth files.. cubase only sounds great on the synth stuff...

Studio one sounded great on everything, just choose elastique "sound" for the synths and "drum" for the, er drums.

Logic just choose slicing or rhythm for the beats and complex for the synths - perfect

same with live

pro tools is actually not the best.. it is NOT using z plane elastique as some people think but rather "elastic audio" and their own(or izotope's) algorithms.. with big stretches on poly stuff, the poly mode is not the best, but the rhythm mode is great for beats. I choose x form for pro tools which takes a sec to render, when it's time to mix down.. and it sounds wonderful on synths and instruments. So overall, yes it still sounds much better than cubase.
Point is, all these daw's have a way to change tempo on the fly as much as you want, and the drums sound good. Cubase can't do it, simple as that.

You don't think this is an oversight? A big one at that?

PS i should add, cubase is actually not the worst, Dp9.5 is.. the very worst by a large margin. Cubase is second.
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Re: I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

Post by TNM » Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:17 am

Raphie wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:47 am
You are aware that if you LOOP 4 or 8 beats you will get mushy random artifacts on monitoring. This happens on all transient material, with short monitoring loop points.
Try copying over a longer period and extend your looppoints.
Also, in general, when you program your material yourself, why bother with above? And not just keep stuff midi or export at the correct BPM in the first place, talking loops and 130BPM it seems you’re into EDM? You will get a lot more gratifaction learning to program these yourself. Or if you already do, export at the right BPM in the first place. Just a tip, as this seems to bother you for more than a year already,
TNM wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:43 am
tedannemann wrote:
Sun Aug 28, 2016 10:16 am
As I said you have to differentiate between "slicing" and "time-stretching" (in its classical sense).
Cubase doesn't slice per se, just stretches the audio material. Stretching always generates artifacts (depending on the algorithm quality). But as soon as you start using Elastique Pro in its standard equivalent setting there is no difference between DAWs using it (actually the stretching usually null).

However be aware that Elastique Pro v3 was implemented in Cubase 8.5 first and not Cubase 8. If you are comparing stretching between 8 and 8.5 there are audible differences.

Logic incorporates "slicing" in it's auto flex time mode. So if you are flexing a drum loop in Logic it usually chooses automatically the "slicing" algorithm (it's actually called "Slicing"). As said in Ableton Live the standard mode is "Beats" which is "slicing" (and not stretching).

In other words you can't compare stretching to slicing quality wise in view of drums. As Cubase doesn't use "slicing" in it's musical mode (automatically stretching or just changing the loop with the time stretching arrow tool) you have to watch out what you compare it too.

If you want slicing like in Logic or Ableton Live you "have to" use the slicing at hit points method. You can easily create a shortcut for it or even create a macro for your special needs.
This is not an issue, it is more of handling error then ;-).

However if you still have different outcomes between different computers with the same Cubase version - there must be some error of course - but obviously in your settings then.

I am happy to test it with your drum loop on my system. I am still confident that you can at least get the same (usually better) results with Cubase than with Logic or Ableton Live. You could activate the download option and soundcloud or deactivate hidden mode.
spot on, but this is the point.. all the other daw's have an auto slicing mode that works when you change tempo automatically.

I am demoing cubase 9 at present and it sounds absolutely awful, slowing down any kind of drum loop or drum audio file, when using elastique (or any mode available in the entire program).
Transient loss, phases.

There is another issue.. if you import a loop that is already at the correct tempo and musical mode is enabled, it affects the sound of the file.. cubase is not smart enough to reference the original audio when it has detected it is the same tempo as the project (clearly evidenced in the tempo display).
I tested this today with a kick loop that i exported from groove agent at 130bpm, in an 130bpm project. Disabling musical mode and it sounded exactly as exported.. enabled, every few kicks, every so often, you can hear some mush clearly. Not good!

So out of all the DAW's, once again, STILL, cubase has the absolute worst drum/transient material time stretch when used in real time.. I compared every daw yesterday stretching two drum files and 2 synth files.. cubase only sounds great on the synth stuff...

Studio one sounded great on everything, just choose elastique "sound" for the synths and "drum" for the, er drums.

Logic just choose slicing or rhythm for the beats and complex for the synths - perfect

same with live

pro tools is actually not the best.. it is NOT using z plane elastique as some people think but rather "elastic audio" and their own(or izotope's) algorithms.. with big stretches on poly stuff, the poly mode is not the best, but the rhythm mode is great for beats. I choose x form for pro tools which takes a sec to render, when it's time to mix down.. and it sounds wonderful on synths and instruments. So overall, yes it still sounds much better than cubase.
Point is, all these daw's have a way to change tempo on the fly as much as you want, and the drums sound good. Cubase can't do it, simple as that.

You don't think this is an oversight? A big one at that?

PS i should add, cubase is actually not the worst, Dp9.5 is.. the very worst by a large margin. Cubase is second.
sorry sunshine saw this topic for the first time ever today when i did a simple google search on "cubase time stretch sounds bad on drums".

I am into all sorts of music.

I am simply stating a fact that cubase time stretch sounds bad on drums. it's really that simple. Why i need or don't need it is not the concern, nor are my musical aspirations or decisions on how I do my drums, whether myself or using a loop if i'm in a hurry.

It's amazing how personal and disgusting people get, attacking one's compositional skills and telling them how to work (@Raphie).
as far as your loop and transient point, no, that's not what i am talking about.

Anyway, i adjusted some hitpoints to be accurate, used the slice at hitpoints feature, and then changed the tempo to the target, and it keeps automatically in time this way. Unfortunately there can be pops here and there, so then you have to go into the editor again, select all slices and make crossfades. it works, and is the best way to change the timing of drum loops.. but there is no auto mode like other daw's and my point remains factual and relevant.

I am simply demoing the Cubase 9 demo to see if i wanted to upgrade from 8.5, that's all, and i noticed some issues with the quality of the TS continuing from 8. I got around it in the past by rewiring live to it and doing all my drums in there when i needed stretching, as it was quick and perfect automatic result every time.
I'll upgrade, as there are too many improvements elsewhere, but i'll continue to use pro tools for the majority of my work.

I am also experience quite some gui slowdown with OS 12.12.6 and Cubase 9.0.3.0... even in small projects, there are delays to clicking and scrolling.. the whole gui feels sluggish.. But that's for another topic.

Just because someone doesn't hang around a forum 24.7 doesn't mean they don't know what they are doing. I have tons of real world experience and owned a lovely pro studio back when i used pro tools HD. Been doing this for 26 years now, going on 27 thanks :)
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Re: I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

Post by Raphie » Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:43 am

No one is telling you how to work. It really depends on what your objective is.
Is it solving the “random mush” in loops? I gave you potential 2 reasons why that happens and 2 suggestions on how to solve that.
What you do with that is totally yours. The 3rd, more holistic advise is that when you create instead of use existing material you have full control, preventing these issues full stop. I’m not making a judgement call on that, just saying you can avoid your issue full stop.
When your post was purely theoretical, not preventing you to work, then my reply did not add any value.
I still wouldn’t put it down exclusively to the algo, there are often other things that come into play as mentioned by others before.
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Re: I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

Post by TNM » Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:25 pm

what i did with slicing solved the mush. The reason it happens is because what i said myself, in my case.. not what you said. I don't think you seem to be able to grasp that, sadly.

Regardless, slicing at (sometimes need to be modified) hitpoints is the answer for now. Done!
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Re: I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

Post by TNM » Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:40 am

Slicing is a lot more time consuming and harder to do when the loop is more complex.. in fact.. i spent an hour today just trying to get one drum loop to sound good sliced (even without stretch), and i couldn't get it anywhere near as good as logic/pro tools/ableton/S1 auto slicing to tempo feature..

so for altering the speed of drums to project tempo, i maintain cubase is very far behind. It's a shame, i hope they change it and add a properly tuned rhythm algorithm.
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Re: I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

Post by fgimian » Sat Jul 27, 2019 6:39 am

Old thread, but I just came here to state the same point. Cubase truly is awful at performing ReCycle-style slicing of loops, whereby no actual timestretching actually takes place, instead an intelligent algorithm uses the shorter sample to revers and join to create a longer one.

I've just been working on moving a Logic Pro X project to Cubase and I have a 140 BPM loop down to 85 BPM in Logic Pro X and it sounds completely transparent. There's absolutely no way I could even approach that in Cubase because time stretching a drum loop so drastically results in unacceptable artefacts.
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Re: I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

Post by mitchiemasha » Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:17 pm

fgimian wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 6:39 am
I've just been working on moving a Logic Pro X project to Cubase and I have a 140 BPM loop down to 85 BPM in Logic Pro X and it sounds completely transparent. There's absolutely no way I could even approach that in Cubase because time stretching a drum loop so drastically results in unacceptable artefacts.
That's a large jump down unless you half timed it and went up. What algorithm does Logic Pro X use? Why not do the loop in Logic and export it? Do you have audio examples?
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Re: I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

Post by fgimian » Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:06 am

mitchiemasha wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:17 pm
fgimian wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 6:39 am
I've just been working on moving a Logic Pro X project to Cubase and I have a 140 BPM loop down to 85 BPM in Logic Pro X and it sounds completely transparent. There's absolutely no way I could even approach that in Cubase because time stretching a drum loop so drastically results in unacceptable artefacts.
That's a large jump down unless you half timed it and went up. What algorithm does Logic Pro X use? Why not do the loop in Logic and export it? Do you have audio examples?
Agreed, it is a huge shift, but Logic handles it gracefully. Here's how the loop sounds using the Slicing algorithm.

Original 140 BPM - https://1drv.ms/u/s!AobnWXPnBeTBgd5XF-QiyY3eFy1TDQ
Sliced down with Logic to 85 BPM - https://1drv.ms/u/s!AobnWXPnBeTBgd5WqhBTTwmONez8Jg

In a mix, you would never even know. There's no way to get close to this with Cubase currently unfortunately. As such, I did indeed resort to bouncing it out in Logic for use in Cubase.

I hope this demonstrates the problem well though. I'll leave the samples up for about 3 - 4 days before removing so Veangeance (the sample pack manufacturer) doesn't get angry :)
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Re: I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

Post by mitchiemasha » Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:43 am

fgimian wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:06 am
There's no way to get close to this with Cubase currently unfortunately.
I'd of cut each hit separately, perhaps that's what Ableton is doing. I'll take a look at the loops in Cubase later. Another thing, the original loop is sped up, not the original, I doubt Vengeance recreated it.
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Re: I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

Post by fgimian » Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:54 pm

mitchiemasha wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:43 am
fgimian wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:06 am
There's no way to get close to this with Cubase currently unfortunately.
I'd of cut each hit separately, perhaps that's what Ableton is doing. I'll take a look at the loops in Cubase later. Another thing, the original loop is sped up, not the original, I doubt Vengeance recreated it.
You could cut each hit separately and work through the process manually, but it would be a huge amount of work. The slicing approach is what Propellerheads Recycle uses, where it slices the loop, and then does some clever reversing and fading out of of each slice to avoid abrupt endings. You're likely right re Vengeance, I'm sure this is sampled and sped up by them, but it's the loop I have to work with at the moment ;)
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Re: I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

Post by mitchiemasha » Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:33 pm

OK! I've had a play and this is real easy. Cubase has a perfect way to do this in 4 Clicks, the hits will sound much cleaner than the Logic example. because no stretching is applied at all.

Select the original loop in project, opening the editor (no music mode or project fitting applied)
Select the HITPOINT Tab
Bring down the threshold until every Hit has a hit point
Select Create Splices

I'm not sure if I had another setting that just happened to be right, but each hit jumped perfectly to the right place, to the project tempo, matching the Logic example. It would only be 2 clicks depending on previous use. The extra advanced features available to us here in Cubase are what might make this seem unavailable. Very easy to fine tune the hitpoints before you create splices. Add some fades after.

Thank you for raising your issue, this feature is amazing.

I was going to try doing it using the freewarp, keeping the hits intact, as original, but stretching the noise inbetween
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Re: I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

Post by fgimian » Wed Aug 07, 2019 2:46 am

mitchiemasha wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:33 pm
OK! I've had a play and this is real easy. Cubase has a perfect way to do this in 4 Clicks, the hits will sound much cleaner than the Logic example. because no stretching is applied at all.

Select the original loop in project, opening the editor (no music mode or project fitting applied)
Select the HITPOINT Tab
Bring down the threshold until every Hit has a hit point
Select Create Splices

I'm not sure if I had another setting that just happened to be right, but each hit jumped perfectly to the right place, to the project tempo, matching the Logic example. It would only be 2 clicks depending on previous use. The extra advanced features available to us here in Cubase are what might make this seem unavailable. Very easy to fine tune the hitpoints before you create splices. Add some fades after.

Thank you for raising your issue, this feature is amazing.

I was going to try doing it using the freewarp, keeping the hits intact, as original, but stretching the noise inbetween
Appreciate the reply, but using this approach, you would end up with a lot of silence between slices when slowing down the tempo dramatically.

What Logic and Recycle are doing is exactly the same thing, BUT they also use the end of the sample, reverse it, crossfade and then fade it out to create natural sounding tails for each slice.

Am I missing something? I can re-upload the original loop again and maybe you can render an example at 85 BPM using your technique to show me what you came up with?
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Re: I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

Post by mitchiemasha » Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:40 pm

fgimian wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 2:46 am
BUT they also use the end of the sample, reverse it, crossfade and then fade it out to create natural sounding tails for each slice.
IMO that's what i don't like. What I hear in the logic example that ruins it. The silence is good, you might want to gate out that noise, especially if layering. If not try some reverb... or even use both. The clean samples from Cubase sliced sidechained over the Logic version for the noise in the gap. You could also sidechain it over a different Cubase algorithm to fill the gaps.

There's likely more options using the WARP but I'm yet to learn of them. The reason it doesn't seem available is because it offers more advanced controls to achieve exactly what you need. It's for us to learn that.
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Re: I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

Post by mitchiemasha » Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:41 pm

it's worth noting the Cubase slice, visually underneath the Ableton (sorry Logic) one, the samples were pretty much exactly in the same place, same size and similar waveform, just without the mess, the lack of the noise was cleaner.
Last edited by mitchiemasha on Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

Post by fgimian » Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:02 pm

I appreciate your insight and help but I’m afraid that I can’t agree with you that the silence between slices is a good thing . Clearly we have different needs here 😊
Software & Audio Interface: Cubase 9.5.30 x64 / Windows 10 / Focusrite Clarett 2Pre
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Re: I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

Post by mitchiemasha » Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:26 am

The Logic Splice sounds bad, the artefacts stand out.

Did you compare both waveforms? they're pretty much exactly the same... Apart from the Cubase example sounds much cleaner, truer to the original sample. Nothing to do with my needs. Use reverb or another layer to fill the silence.

The Logic one even adds some kind of hit that isn't even there
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Re: I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

Post by fgimian » Sat Aug 10, 2019 7:23 am

I'm sorry but I completely disagree and I think it's time that anyone who doubts this problem demonstrates how Cubase does this better.

So, here's a fresh OneDrive folder share link: https://1drv.ms/u/s!AobnWXPnBeTBgd8xILZ ... g?e=erYWUQ

It includes the following:

VEC3 Breakbeat 140 BPM 021 - Original Loop
VEC3 Breakbeat 140 BPM 021 (Logic Slicing Algorithm) - Original Loop Slowed down to 85 BPM with logic Pro Slicing algorithm
Smooth Vocal Chops (Example with Loop at 85 BPM) - A small production using the slowed down loop

Can you demonstrate how Cubase does a better job at slowing down the original loop to 85 BPM? Please render the result and share to demonstrate what your real-world results were.
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Re: I have two issues with the Cubase 8 algorithm

Post by mitchiemasha » Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:16 pm

Can't you hear the artefacts in the logic example? I've not listened to the new upload if it's different but the last one you did wasn't the perfect example you seem to think it is. They stand out more when you a/b the 2. The Cubase splice (done as mentioned above) vs Logic.
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