Quick Controls will not follow Expression Map midi channels

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Paulwr
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Quick Controls will not follow Expression Map midi channels

Post by Paulwr » Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:47 am

I'm hoping there is a solution for this, as I'm re-configuring a 1500 instrument template across 4 computers to include Quick Controls which will be connected to hardware faders and knobs.

To illustrate simply, if I set up Kontakt as a Rack Instrument, and then insert two patches... one set the midi ch1 and the next patch set to midi ch2, using Expression Map with keyswitches, I can as always assign each keyswitch to an instrument on whatever midi channel I want. Fine, always works. In this scenario, ch1 for first patch, ch2 for second patch. So far so good.

Now, I set up Quick Controls, hey great, all my cc's connect fine and control all my corresponding controls in the patch in Kontakt. BUT.... if I go to the next keyswitch, cc's continue to control MIDI CH1 not MIDI CH2 as expected!! My keyboard controller follows fine, I'm playing patch#2 on ch2. Even my mod wheel controls cc1 on the correct instrument. WHY WON'T THE QUICK CONTROLS FOLLOW the chosen patch/midi channel? I have a HUGE template I will have to completely rebuild if I want to use quick controls, this is nuts. Am I missing something? I can't be the only person up against this unless I have overlooked something obvious.

Thanks,
Paul
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Re: Quick Controls will not follow Expression Map midi chann

Post by Martin.Jirsak » Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:11 am

Hi,

What exactly do you Control via QuickControl, please? Could you send a screenshot of the QC tab open, please?
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Re: Quick Controls will not follow Expression Map midi chann

Post by vic_france » Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:35 am

I found that interesting enough to check for myself ;)..
While you are correct inasmuch as when playing live (i.e. MIDI Thru), it does work as expected when actually recording onto the track, and playing back. (Not quite sure what to make of that! ;).. is it completely logical, or does that seem like a bug?)
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Re: Quick Controls will not follow Expression Map midi chann

Post by Paulwr » Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:13 pm

Martin.Jirsak wrote:Hi,

What exactly do you Control via QuickControl, please? Could you send a screenshot of the QC tab open, please?
Eventually I intend to control most all virtual instruments and many plugs with QC's. Right now I'm starting with my Spitfire libraries. Normally this occurs through VE Pro to slave computers, but the problem doesn't seem related to that. Just setting up Kontakt in this case within Cubase as a Rack instrument exhibits the same behavior. Here is the screen shot of QC controls. Oddly, if you click on a slot and choose Volume parameter from the top of the list, it works fine and follows midi channels defined in Expression Map that are triggered by key switches. But at the bottom of the list you find "All CC" and anything chosen from that list will NOT follow midi channels set in an Expression Map. To me and I think anyone, this would be considered wrong behavior.

Screen shot attached.
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Re: Quick Controls will not follow Expression Map midi chann

Post by Martin.Jirsak » Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:32 pm

Hi,

The Quick Contorls always send the data on the MIDI Chanel of the MIDI Track. If you set the MIDI track to Channel 1, it always sends it via MIDI Channel 1.

If you set the MIDI Channel to Any, no Quick Controls (MIDI Controllers) are sent.

So I'm afraid, there is no way, how to send the data on 2 different MIDI Channels from one track, via QCs.
Last edited by Martin.Jirsak on Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Quick Controls will not follow Expression Map midi chann

Post by Paulwr » Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:50 pm

vic_france wrote:I found that interesting enough to check for myself ;)..
While you are correct inasmuch as when playing live (i.e. MIDI Thru), it does work as expected when actually recording onto the track, and playing back. (Not quite sure what to make of that! ;).. is it completely logical, or does that seem like a bug?)
I'd say it is a bug to have some things follow the midi channel and some things not follow the midi channel that you are pointing to, in this case pointing to a midi channel using Expression Maps.
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Re: Quick Controls will not follow Expression Map midi chann

Post by Martin.Jirsak » Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:17 pm

Paulwr wrote:
vic_france wrote:I found that interesting enough to check for myself ;)..
While you are correct inasmuch as when playing live (i.e. MIDI Thru), it does work as expected when actually recording onto the track, and playing back. (Not quite sure what to make of that! ;).. is it completely logical, or does that seem like a bug?)
I'd say it is a bug to have some things follow the midi channel and some things not follow the midi channel that you are pointing to, in this case pointing to a midi channel using Expression Maps.
Then you would always use MIDI Channel Any, when using Expression Maps with multiple MIDI Channels.
Last edited by Martin.Jirsak on Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Quick Controls will not follow Expression Map midi chann

Post by Paulwr » Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:30 pm

Martin.Jirsak wrote:
Paulwr wrote:
vic_france wrote:I found that interesting enough to check for myself ;)..
While you are correct inasmuch as when playing live (i.e. MIDI Thru), it does work as expected when actually recording onto the track, and playing back. (Not quite sure what to make of that! ;).. is it completely logical, or does that seem like a bug?)
I'd say it is a bug to have some things follow the midi channel and some things not follow the midi channel that you are pointing to, in this case pointing to a midi channel using Expression Maps.
En you would always use MIDI Channel Any, when using Expression Maps with multiple MIDI Channels.
Expression Map will bypass the track midi channel, in normal use it doesn't matter what you set it to. But in this scenario trying to use QC's, if you use "Any" then not even midi ch 1 works with QC's!! Your midi keyboard and all its controls will work on the midi channel pointed to by your Expression Map KS, but NOT QC's! You'll need to set up a test to see this. Hopefully it works for you and I just need to track down a goofy problem here. I'm hoping to get this verified in C8.5 and also C9.

Thanks,
Paul
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Re: Quick Controls will not follow Expression Map midi chann

Post by Paulwr » Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:16 pm

Martin.Jirsak wrote:Hi,

The Quick Contorls always send the data on the MIDI Chanel of the MIDI Track. If you set the MIDI track to Channel 1, it always sends it via MIDI Channel 1.

If you set the MIDI Channel to Any, no Quick Controls (MIDI Controllers) are sent.

So I'm afraid, there is no way, how to send the data on 2 different MIDI Channels from one track, via QCs.
I missed your post, glad I noticed it now, thanks.

So Quick Controls only follows a single midi channel assigned from the track, and it will not follow the Expression Map midi channel assignment.... which is what is certainly happening here. That, to me, is incorrect midi behavior. If you have Expression Map controlling your midi channels to access different instruments, and your keyboard controller and hardware controller(s) are following that, logically you would want your Quick Controls to follow that too, yes? To me it is the only correct behavior. Am I missing something?
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Re: Quick Controls will not follow Expression Map midi chann

Post by Martin.Jirsak » Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:33 pm

Actually, I don' know, what should be followed.

From my point of view, I wonder the MIDI track sends MIDI data on other, then specified Channel. So if I set MIDI Channel 1, and then define switch to MIDI Channel 2 by using Expression Map, I wonder (kind of), the data is send on MIDI Channel 2.

If I add a MIDI Note, which plays on the MIDI Channel 2, this Note is converted to MIDI Channel 1, by the Channel Settings.
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Re: Quick Controls will not follow Expression Map midi chann

Post by Paulwr » Thu Dec 15, 2016 6:48 pm

Martin.Jirsak wrote:Actually, I don' know, what should be followed.

From my point of view, I wonder the MIDI track sends MIDI data on other, then specified Channel. So if I set MIDI Channel 1, and then define switch to MIDI Channel 2 by using Expression Map, I wonder (kind of), the data is send on MIDI Channel 2.

If I add a MIDI Note, which plays on the MIDI Channel 2, this Note is converted to MIDI Channel 1, by the Channel Settings.
If you are using Expression Map, you have chosen to send to midi channels per options in the Expression Map. That is how you can get to additional instruments on other midi channels, such as when you have multiple instruments in Kontakt on different channels for key switching. Very common for composers to need that.

So if you choose to use key switches in Expression Map to change instruments like that, and your keyboard controller is following, I think it is necessary for Quick Controls to follow that, too. Otherwise, your Quick Control could be trying to control something that isn't being used, because Expression Map is pointing to another midi channel.

Does this not seem correct? Maybe I'm missing something, but if my keyboard controller is pointing to a midi channel, I want Quick Controls to point to the same channel. I can think of no reason to want it to be different. Unless you were controlling a global adjustment in the Kontakt instance, but normally that is not the case. Normally, if you are playing an instrument, you want your available controls to be connected to that insturment on the same channel.
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Re: Quick Controls will not follow Expression Map midi chann

Post by Martin.Jirsak » Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:23 pm

Paulwr wrote:
So if you choose to use key switches in Expression Map to change instruments like that, and your keyboard controller is following, I think it is necessary for Quick Controls to follow that, too. Otherwise, your Quick Control could be trying to control something that isn't being used, because Expression Map is pointing to another midi channel.
So the Quick Controls would follow the Expression Maps?
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Re: Quick Controls will not follow Expression Map midi chann

Post by Paulwr » Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:29 pm

Martin.Jirsak wrote:
Paulwr wrote:
So if you choose to use key switches in Expression Map to change instruments like that, and your keyboard controller is following, I think it is necessary for Quick Controls to follow that, too. Otherwise, your Quick Control could be trying to control something that isn't being used, because Expression Map is pointing to another midi channel.
So the Quick Controls would follow the Expression Maps?
I think so and will be asking for that online and I'll ask Greg Ondo when I see him again here in Nashville.
Do you think QC should follow Expression Maps? If no, I'd like to know why in case there is something I have overlooked.

Thanks,
Paul
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Re: Quick Controls will not follow Expression Map midi chann

Post by vic_france » Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:00 am

Martin.Jirsak wrote:
Paulwr wrote: So the Quick Controls would follow the Expression Maps?
But I can see a potentially dangerous situation there (when the Expression Map is changing MIDI channels, of course ;) )..
Imagine two notes being played overlapping, each with its own Attribute-type articulation (so its channel number is kept until the end of the note). If you send a CQ while both notes are playing, which channel should it be transmitted on? (I know you'd love to say "both" ;), but just imagine the rewrite that would be necessary, just to cover that one case! ;).
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Re: Quick Controls will not follow Expression Map midi chann

Post by Paulwr » Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:15 am

vic_france wrote:
Martin.Jirsak wrote:
Paulwr wrote: So the Quick Controls would follow the Expression Maps?
But I can see a potentially dangerous situation there (when the Expression Map is changing MIDI channels, of course ;) )..
Imagine two notes being played overlapping, each with its own Attribute-type articulation (so its channel number is kept until the end of the note). If you send a CQ while both notes are playing, which channel should it be transmitted on? (I know you'd love to say "both" ;), but just imagine the rewrite that would be necessary, just to cover that one case! ;).
hmmmm, not sure I see the problem, or at least don't see an added problem. In my work-around I'm going to wind up sending my cc changes on the same midi stream as my keyboard controller with a hardware controller. It will change along with the key switches that way. No different than if my hardware controller was changing via the QC, correct?
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Re: Quick Controls will not follow Expression Map midi chann

Post by vic_france » Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:38 am

Paulwr wrote: hmmmm, not sure I see the problem, or at least don't see an added problem. In my work-around I'm going to wind up sending my cc changes on the same midi stream as my keyboard controller with a hardware controller. It will change along with the key switches that way. No different than if my hardware controller was changing via the QC, correct?
There won't be any problem (unless you have more than two hands ;) ) while playing/recording live. The problem.. which will also be the same with any CC#s directly in the MIDI editor.. is if you then add any articulations on a different MIDI channel while other notes on the original channel are still playing.
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Re: Quick Controls will not follow Expression Map midi chann

Post by Paulwr » Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:58 am

vic_france wrote:
Paulwr wrote: hmmmm, not sure I see the problem, or at least don't see an added problem. In my work-around I'm going to wind up sending my cc changes on the same midi stream as my keyboard controller with a hardware controller. It will change along with the key switches that way. No different than if my hardware controller was changing via the QC, correct?
There won't be any problem (unless you have more than two hands ;) ) while playing/recording live. The problem.. which will also be the same with any CC#s directly in the MIDI editor.. is if you then add any articulations on a different MIDI channel while other notes on the original channel are still playing.
This has never been a problem for me. I key-switch all the time, some of my strings have around 40 articulations on a single track and I can sometimes change them frequently on a single melodic line for realism. But that is modulation and cc11 expression and vibrato currently. Now where there could be an issue is when one articulation uses the same cc say in a short compared to a long the same cc controlling something else. But I usually am in key edit area even when recording and I would simply manually correct the over lap in a second on the rare occasions there was a meaningful conflict.

Again, as you also noted, these are all existing problems, not a new problem created by having QC follow midi channel defined in Expression Maps. I believe the current behavior of QC not following Expression Maps is an error/oversight, and that it should be corrected.
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Re: Quick Controls will not follow Expression Map midi channels

Post by Lhotse » Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:18 pm

Is there any news about this issue, please?

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