Virgin Territory: Thoughts / Reactions

I think you actually just described two of the things I was trying to say:


So one of the points I made that I think you misunderstood has to do with the above.

You write automation and then - after - you want to experiment; so you turn “write” off. So now your automation will recall whatever was written before (and if you’re before where you wrote automation it’ll pick up the stuff at the beginning of the timeline). You press play, and you “try something” with your automation. To then write it, you “re engage write to have it written”.

My point earlier was this: Suppose you do exactly what you described, but perhaps something happens - the phone rings, the pot of water is boiling on the stove, whatever - so you choose to not yet punch in by “re engaging write”… IF you then stop or let the playback either reach automation written later or cycle back, THEN the settings you “tried” will be lost, because it will again read automation. IF it did NOT read automation on stop/return (cycle), you would still have those last settings you “tried” in VT. This would have been a different way of working, and one that is arguably more intuitive when just looking at the automation written on lanes. Not necessarily better, but different.

That’s what I was saying earlier. Your intuition was exactly the same as mine, and it appears other users expect the same thing. It’s not “complicated”, it’s just not intuitive. So from that standpoint it’s confusing.

What happens if you use VT plus latch plus fill though? That doesn’t achieve what you want?

i’m going to have to try that :slight_smile:

(but not until c8 works properly, i gave up on it for now.)

Amen.

It’s ironic that I made this topic—while I’m not even using C8. It’s dead to me until (maybe?) next patch…

Despite this lengthy thread VT seems rather simple to me . . . and useless.

As I understood it VT was supposed to allow you to “Play” with the mix feely outside of areas that you’ve written automation to.
But it doesn’t.

If anyone is unclear I’ll give a simple example:

You’ve got a song (or whatever) with sections A, B, C and D.
Using VT and Touch mode you write some automation to section D (fader moves, we’ll say).

Now you move to section B and hit play and start messing with the mix (no automation here).
Everything is fine. You get to the end of section B and hit “Stop”. You nailed it. Sounds great.
So - using ANY method you return the cursor to the start of B.

AND when you do ALL your levels change - reset. You lose the mix.
So much for “freely playing with the mix”.

Most here know that’s because when you wrote the Automation to that final section D Cubase wrote a “starting point” to the very beginning of the song. And any time you locate the cursor within sections A, B, or C everything will jump to that point even thought there’s no automation in those sections. In fact, it’s exactly the same as “Standard” automation except Cubase waits till you locate the cursor to reset everything (instead of immediately after you “let go” of a control).

In fact, Cubase ALWAYS chases the last automation point, anywhere in the project.

If I turn off “Read” in the above scenario - as suggested by some - and then tweak my B section?
As soon as I engage “Write” to record my changes Cubase will again chase those starting levels - losing my tweaks.

It seems to me there’s a really simple solution here and that is to have a “turn off chase automation” button.

That way you could write things here, there, wherever when building your mix without this issue.
When you’re just playing back or rendering you would, of course, want to turn “chase” ON.

Does that sound like a good idea?
Or am I missing something really fundamental here - like you can already do that?

Hugh

I’m just thinking… could the ‘Suspend Read’ function be used to achieve something similar to what Virgin Territories is designed to do?

i.e. Enable Suspend Read, play around with your parameters until you are happy, then engage Write mode and write the automation to the relevant section and finally disable Suspend Read. I haven’t tried this, but just thinking aloud. I can’t remember if Suspend Read covers all automation parameters or just some, like fader levels, mutes etc.

EDIT: just had a look and you can suspend read for all parameters so maybe this is a reasonable concept.

YES!

That works!

Thanks.

'Course I still like the idea of a “Suspend Chase” button. That way I could leave “Read” on without things jumping around if I’m in a “no automation” zone. It would make VT make more sense.

Yes, I’ve just been playing around with this and it’s actually quite a nice solution for experimenting with your mix settings and then you can use the ‘Loop Fill’ function to write them to a section between the locators once you’re happy with things.

I’m not following what the difference would be between ‘Suspend Chase’ and the ‘Suspend Read’ that already exists.

And to be honest, now I’ve just discovered the value of Suspend Read, I’m still unsure what the value of Virgin Territories is. I guess VT is potentially a quicker way of doing it if they tweak the way it’s implemented so it doesn’t chase previous automation events when you stop/start/cycle.

THank you Hugh and everyone for such detailed descriptions of VT. I’m reading this thread to see if VT is something I would use in C 8.5.10, as part of figuring out whether there is enough additional functionality there to make me want to leave 7.5.40.

I wonder if I don’t understand the part highlighted in blue above. When I create an audio track and click activate the green “Automation Read” button on the volume automation lane, an automation line with value “0dB” is visible throughout the track, presumably written by Cubase as a default action.

So naturally it follows that if I automate part D, with the final value being “-3dB” for example, then I go to part B, nothing is chased … because Cubase has written automation there already, the fader snaps to “0 dB”, it does not remain at “-3 dB”.

Is this different from Cubase 8/8.5/8.5.10? Or have I forgotten that maybe I’ve activated a preference that by default writes “0 dB” automation throughout all new tracks?

Thanks for any clarification!

You know, I was so disappointed with “Virgin Territory” I have not touched it for a while.

What you highlighted in Blue above is still true. Cubase still chases in “Read” if you move the cursor even in a Virgin area.
However, what I highlighted in ?Pea Green? is not true (anymore?).
Cubase does not chase previous automation when activating “Write” in a Virgin area. I’m not sure if I was wrong at the time (Not Likely!! :astonished: ) or they’ve changed it.
In any case, if you deactivate “Read” and mess around in a Virgin area you can then activate “Write” without losing your changes. Just don’t touch that cursor after activating “Write”. Cubase will chase earlier Automation and wipe any changes you’ve made. You can only Play and Record after going into “Write”. But still, that is a good change.

The difference is . . . having to Suspend (or turn off) read to work on Virgin areas means when you DO reach automation it isn’t read. So you can’t hear how it flows from the previous bit you’ve been working on.
(Of course, when you reach that automation you lose the stuff you just changed . . . so :open_mouth: )

But having “Chase” suspend in VT mode just makes sense.
Like say I’m working in a Virgin section and I’m ready to write.
So . . .I engage “Write”. I realize I’m at the end of the section so I (doesn’t matter how) move the cursor to the start of my Virgin section . . . ooops! Just lost my changes.
Cubase chased some values earlier in the song.
There is NO logic in it and it defeats the whole point of “Virgin Territories”.

Actually, when you turn on “Virgin Territories” that line disappears (as it should).
Are you sure you’ve activated VT in the Automation Settings box (Automation Panel - the little cog at the lower left)?

I think they have definitely made some adjustments to it. Like my ?Pea Green? highlight above. I don’t think I was wrong at the time.
But it makes a big difference. In Normal Automation mode the levels WILL ALWAYS jump to the current level when activating write. Now they do not subject to not touching the cursor.

Also, there is the “Gaps” (I think they call it) function in VT where you can erase a chunk of Automation and create an empty area. No lines will connect previous and later nodes. You can then redo or whatever subject to the limitations noted above.

So . . yeah. It’s cool and worth looking into.

But the “Chase” thing?
That’s another one of those things I just don’t get. Like somebody at Steinberg wasn’t thinking for a minute.

Hugh




Thanks again, Hugh, that was really helpful in understanding. The remaining questions I have will need to be answered by actually playing around with it myself, I believe. I’m probably installing 8.5.10 next weekend, assuming I can do the trial (I’m not sure if the trial is just for 8.0, or 8.10), I’ll check it out.

The thing is, not only can you not touch the cursor, you also cannot have cycle enabled because as soon as it cycles back to the beginning, your previous automation will be ‘chased’. So in other words, you have ONE CHANCE, to listen/evaluate and write your required automation. What good is that? I’m still not seeing any value at all in the current Virgin Territories setup.

Anything change lately with virgin territories, or is it still as J-S-Q and Hugh describe?

I’ve got 8.5.20 downloaded, now considering activating it. VT is a big part of that decision …

Thanks -

You’re all looking at this wrong in the wrong project context I think… You’re trying to imagine how to use Virgin Territories in your own audio job when you might not have an audio job that requires Virgin Territories or your own work style doesn’t require it.

Virgin territories is not meant to be used by %99 of the people who have Cubase. It is a feature meant for Nuendo that worked its way into Cubase… I’m assuming. That’s why Nuendo is more expensive, it has more niche features but they are niche features that are very important to some people.

Virgin territories should not be used, if you are all over project… jumping from section to section, working on individual chunks, etc, etc. It’s meant if you have a work need where you are either always working from the beginning of the track, to the end (like you would with a tape machine), or in a live broadcast situation.

Think about two things.

1.) Printing your mix/mixing through a console or external fx.

If you are mixing on a console and printing back into the DAW a stereo track, you are mixing from start to finish. You might doing multiple mix downs like this and then choosing the best one. Ie, doing a live performance mix of a track. Throughout parts of the track, you might have very specific values you want to draw in on the automation OR, for example, you have a very specific intro curve and outro curve you want the DAW to handle, but you want your fader to be free/non-automated during the rest of the track while you and your assistants performance mix the track until you get “the one”.


2.) Broadcast cues where visuals and sound are sync’d. This is a guess, as I don’t work in post.

So for television cues, like a news station… you might have a visual graphic intro in which you want the sound to be perfectly sync’d to, but when the segment cuts to a camera man swinging his camera on a dolly onto the talent/interview/etc - there could be some variance here in terms of timing - when the camera gets to its position or when people start talkng… the control room might want manual control without there being an automation read causing the fader to bounce back up to a level.


You’re not hearing from these people on this forum, because of none of these people have the time to be on internet forums. :laughing:



For some of you, an instance you might find yourself using it… an example… you might be working on a very ambient track in which you are sending something to an external delay like a PCM41 which you are printing live back into the DAW. You might have a start value automated, but you want control of the output to the PCM41 through the track to experiment with and print multiple takes. Infact, it doesn’t even need to be an external fx. You can record the output of your tracks internally in Cubase now, so it might just be a VST delay you want control of throughout the track.

"For parameter automation, Cubase works either with an initial value or with virgin territory.
When no automation data exists for a particular parameter, the starting point of an automation pass is saved as the initial value. When you punch out of the automation pass, it is this initial value to which the parameter will return. This has one important consequence: As soon as the initial value is set, the corresponding parameter is fully automated for the complete track, at any given timecode position of the project – even if your automation pass lasted only 2 seconds. When you release a control, it returns to the value that is defined by the automation curve – even when in Stop mode.

When you enable Use Virgin Territory, no automation curve is displayed on the automation track, and you find automation data only where you actually perform an automation pass. After an automation pass you will find virgin territory only to the right of the last automation event."

just to have confirmation… it seems there is people here who understood how virgin territories works… I made the update to cubase 9.5, now virgin territories doesn’t work right anymore… here is a video I made from the problem where you can see automation is not correctly read… cubase doesn’t read the last value when moving… so automation is not read correctly now… you can’t have the right values when moving accros project…
cubase pro 9.5 automation problem - YouTube which makes automation a real nightmare now using virgin territories (and saddly it is the only mode I’m confortable with)…
can anyone confirm this ?

and to respond to ancien post (I didn’t read all), Virgin territories was never meant to have the same functionnality as a “disable read automation” … it’s just a way to write automation so that when you write it, it doesn’t return when you release the fader to the “line” of automation because there isn’t one… automation will change at the next automation value… and it was so usefull and so convenient. And the way to write an “initial value” at the begining of the project as soon as you start automation was brillant. It was a very usefull feature… and now it is broken…

Yes, alexis.

It is now working as I believe it should.

“Virgin Territories” are now truly “Virgin”.

You can now write automation to one part of your project and then play around anywhere else - with Read still on - and nothing will change, nothing will chase.
When you reach or locate to the section you automated everything will be read correctly.

Hugh

Edit: Just noticed you said 8.5.2. This change is in 9.5 only, as far as I know.
It’s been so long since I’ve touched the function though (due to its “brokeness”, IMHO) can’t say for sure when it changed.

hum… so, explain me how you use it, now that it is good to you… ???
lets make a scenario… you jump in a virgin territory, lets say an other song in the same project and are happy to have you faders not moving…, you start writing automation… and as soon as you release the fader, it stops writing automation… so you have a virgin territory in the middle of your song… a litlle latter in the song you make a change, so write new automation… and now… you want to hear if the change you made is good, so you go a little before your new writing… and … tadam !! cubase doesn’t read the value before, so it doen’t read the automation at all.
So the only way using virgin territories in your vision of the things is… to draw lines between all your events… :laughing: and so to have no virgin territory in your song at all… waw… very convenient way of using virgin territories… not to have them :laughing:

my point is when you say “when you reach or locate the section you automated everything will be read correctly”… yes, but you start from something no ? before the moment you automated you had nothing ?? you start in a virgin territory, you are happy because there is nothing… you move the fader and it will stay were you put it… so if you don’t write automation of that “correct” position, cubase won’t remmember it… so what the point to move your fader and make a choice you have to write it anyway… and as I said, in this mode, cubase won’t fill the gaps, so you have to write all the way to the end automation, or fill the gaps yourself by hand…
A feature that would be great, is when disabling read function, to have the ability to write down the current status of all tracks that have automation as a new “begining” snapshot… (maybe there is this in nuendo I don’t know.) but this is an other subject. For now virgin territories mode is totaly useless… I persist… use it and you’ll see… or explain to me how it is so good now ?? It seems I talk with people who never understood its operating mode so that they never used it… and now they are happy to have a useless feature… waw… what a world…