Midi Notes early (or audio is played early)

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Re: Midi Notes early (or audio is played early)

Post by mitchiemasha » Sun Aug 23, 2015 7:09 pm

WELL... I will also chime in to say. I won't be purchasing 8 until I hear some kind of why we are doing it wrong from Steinberg.

This is definitely the most important issue for me. I have noticed this in the passed but dismissed it as not having things set up properly. Will try the SOS article.
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Re: Midi Notes early (or audio is played early)

Post by keyzs » Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:01 am

not sure if this is the issue...

goto:
Devices > Device Setup > (look for) VST Audio System

there is a check box Adjust for Record Latency - UNCHECK

hopefully this may help.... cheers!!!
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Re: Midi Notes early (or audio is played early)

Post by mitchiemasha » Mon Aug 24, 2015 3:46 pm

I tried that. Problem with 8 is the consistency of the notes timing varies, In 5 it is fixed (same delay with each note), when I did the tests recommended in the SOS article. So in 5 easy work around with delays/offset. 8 has a kind of unintentional swing.
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Re: Midi Notes early (or audio is played early)

Post by pumafred » Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:56 pm

As small consolation, please note these issues have been taken up by Steinberg:

http://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtop ... 31&t=80800

http://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtop ... 31&t=82639
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Re: Midi Notes early (or audio is played early)

Post by mitchiemasha » Tue Aug 25, 2015 6:35 pm

Any idea why those threads got locked before people discussed possible solutions.

I'm sticking with cubase 5 as the difference stays consistent, easy work around. 8 is like unintended swing on my system after trying the demo. No upgrade coin from me.
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Re: Midi Notes early (or audio is played early)

Post by pumafred » Tue Aug 25, 2015 8:46 pm

mitchiemasha wrote:Any idea why those threads got locked before people discussed possible solutions.
There was plenty discussion on both, but I guess once Steinberg "acknowledges" the problem, that part is deleted, because there were no solutions. Steinberg has to fix it.
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Re: Midi Notes early (or audio is played early)

Post by kavinsky » Fri Oct 16, 2015 9:27 pm

Any update on this?
I always had this on various system and with all sorts of midi controllers. It's definitely a Cubase bug. Around 10 years passed and the state of this issue is the same.
Please Steinberg do something about it asap! it's simply unacceptable.

Also I don't get why the thread is in solved issues, when it's not solved???
http://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtop ... 31&t=80800

EDIT seems like ASIO Latency compensation fixes this problem by some degree
you can apply it to every track by default in the Preferences

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Re: Midi Notes early (or audio is played early)

Post by pumafred » Sat Oct 17, 2015 8:10 pm

Solved for many with 8.0.30. Not for you?
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Re: Midi Notes early (or audio is played early)

Post by ak2estudio » Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:59 am

Cubase 8.5 ... same *flower*,,,, same problem,,,,,same nigthmare

Equipement.

Asus Z87-A
i7 4047
Interface RME fireface 400....

I start to considerate seriously to change my DAW.

If the problem is whit some hardware , Steinberg MUST localice it, and inform to the users ,,, THANKS

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Re: Midi Notes early (or audio is played early)

Post by Jorge Ruiz » Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:22 pm

I remember this issue being very long discussed here during the SX3 and 4 days. Then, it seemed to be fixed around 7-7.5 or, at least, it became less popular. And now this arises again in 8-8.5. OMG, such a core feature... What a nightmare. :roll:
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Re: Midi Notes early (or audio is played early)

Post by mitchiemasha » Wed Dec 16, 2015 10:48 pm

I guess we can see it as swing for free. My tracks had swing before I even knew how to swing. Shame I went all in the box, wondered where all that life went.
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Re: Midi Notes early (or audio is played early)

Post by RikuKH » Mon Dec 28, 2015 11:55 am

So will I EVER be able to fix this issue in Cubase LE 5? I've been struggling for hours with this, I finally thought I'd be able to record something decent after all these years, but no matter what I do, the drum track just doesn't fit.

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Re: Midi Notes early (or audio is played early)

Post by mitchiemasha » Mon Dec 28, 2015 9:15 pm

So far my testing has shown that if I set my asio to 1024 and use a -13. ish time adjust on my midi track sending the midi notes to my hardware, the track for record in cubase, will record in time. Cubase 8.5...
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Re: Midi Notes early (or audio is played early)

Post by leroo » Thu Jan 07, 2016 7:17 am

I don't think that this issue is fixed in 8.0.35
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Re: Midi Notes early (or audio is played early)

Post by mitchiemasha » Thu Jan 14, 2016 2:20 pm

Erm... it works. Well I'm pretty sure it did when I tried it last
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Re: Midi Notes early (or audio is played early)

Post by KDEF2004 » Sat Jan 23, 2016 11:20 pm

I've tried every setting possible and this is definitely a bug that should have been rectified ages ago... In the vst days, there was a setting midi to audio delay. The setting we have in device setup audio, does not work. sigh...
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Re: Midi Notes early (or audio is played early)

Post by Stephen57 » Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:14 am

I'm wondering? Could the PPQ resolution and or its relationship to the sampling rate have any influence on correcting the apparent timing errors?

What PPQ do you work at for MIDI and what sampling rate for your audio?
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Re: Midi Notes early (or audio is played early)

Post by mitchiemasha » Sun Jan 24, 2016 9:48 am

KDEF2004 wrote:I've tried every setting possible and this is definitely a bug that should have been rectified ages ago... In the vst days, there was a setting midi to audio delay. The setting we have in device setup audio, does not work. sigh...
-12/13 ms worked for me. It changes depending on what asio setting (obviously) but not in an obvious way.
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Re: Midi Notes early (or audio is played early)

Post by sasha-che » Sun Jan 24, 2016 6:53 pm

I've been experiencing this delay on three different machines:

1) Cubase 5 on an old Windows XP computer, with Korg Trinity connected to it as a midi keyboard through MOTU interface.

2) Cubase 8.0 on MacBook Pro (Mavericks) with Yamaha P90 as a MIDI keyboard connected through M-Audio FastTrack or smth like that.

3) Cubase 8.5 on MacMini (Mavericks) with Akai MPK Mini keyboard and Akai EWI USB.

The delay is present in all the cases, it makes recording of live MIDI performances pesky and irritating. After each recording I open up a Piano Roll, select all events and change "Start" parameter in the above section. This is ridiculous. I wonder what folks at Steinberg think about it.
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Re: Midi Notes early (or audio is played early)

Post by guitarpaul » Mon Jan 25, 2016 9:34 pm

I'm so frustrated about this Midi timing issue. For a few years now it's been messing with my ears to the point that I thought my playing was just poor! Something didn't sit right so yesterday I did a lot tests with midi and audio and sure enough I have the same issue with the notes hitting the grid just before the metronome and I swear it's moving other notes about too.

How did we get to 2016 with all this CPU power available etc but fail to record a midi controller in time?

I have to fix this somehow. As I'm using a keyboard controller so I guess these external midi clocks etc won't really help the cause. I play pianos & not sequenced patterns from synths etc.

Is there any recommend hardware (sound cards, interfaces etc) that would cure this problem?

I'm currently using a Zoom R16 (think its OK) with an Axiom Air 61 (via USB) and a Korg SV1 (via USB).

Playing with various settings etc like the Timestamp Option and the ASIO Guard etc etc I have managed to get the notes closer but it's still not good enough.

Is this literally just a case of waiting for Steinberg to respond with a fix or will any upgrades fix this??

I so badly want accurate midi recording like the old days of Atari and Win XP (I don't remember having this problem back then)

Maybe its a 64bit thing???

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Re: Midi Notes early (or audio is played early)

Post by KDEF2004 » Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:37 pm

guitarpaul wrote:I'm so frustrated about this Midi timing issue. For a few years now it's been messing with my ears to the point that I thought my playing was just poor! Something didn't sit right so yesterday I did a lot tests with midi and audio and sure enough I have the same issue with the notes hitting the grid just before the metronome and I swear it's moving other notes about too.

How did we get to 2016 with all this CPU power available etc but fail to record a midi controller in time?

I have to fix this somehow. As I'm using a keyboard controller so I guess these external midi clocks etc won't really help the cause. I play pianos & not sequenced patterns from synths etc.

Is there any recommend hardware (sound cards, interfaces etc) that would cure this problem?

I'm currently using a Zoom R16 (think its OK) with an Axiom Air 61 (via USB) and a Korg SV1 (via USB).

Playing with various settings etc like the Timestamp Option and the ASIO Guard etc etc I have managed to get the notes closer but it's still not good enough.

Is this literally just a case of waiting for Steinberg to respond with a fix or will any upgrades fix this??

I so badly want accurate midi recording like the old days of Atari and Win XP (I don't remember having this problem back then)

Maybe its a 64bit thing???

You are not alone my friend. I have silently been dealing with this ever since SX2. SX1 did not have this problem nor did Cubase VST32. I've had professional keyboard players chew a hole out of me because of this. Sadly, Logic has never had this problem and I'm going to say from Logic 2.0- Logic Pro 10... sigh... In the past I would have them play in logic, then send over the midi file to cubase to continue working. It's not a platform issue, but a cubase issue. Timestamp used to work in Cubase 5, but we're at 8.5... Steinberg :?:
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Re: Midi Notes early (or audio is played early)

Post by StudioSteve » Thu Jan 28, 2016 4:59 pm

KDEF2004 wrote:
guitarpaul wrote:I'm so frustrated about this Midi timing issue. For a few years now it's been messing with my ears to the point that I thought my playing was just poor! Something didn't sit right so yesterday I did a lot tests with midi and audio and sure enough I have the same issue with the notes hitting the grid just before the metronome and I swear it's moving other notes about too.

How did we get to 2016 with all this CPU power available etc but fail to record a midi controller in time?

I have to fix this somehow. As I'm using a keyboard controller so I guess these external midi clocks etc won't really help the cause. I play pianos & not sequenced patterns from synths etc.

Is there any recommend hardware (sound cards, interfaces etc) that would cure this problem?

I'm currently using a Zoom R16 (think its OK) with an Axiom Air 61 (via USB) and a Korg SV1 (via USB).

Playing with various settings etc like the Timestamp Option and the ASIO Guard etc etc I have managed to get the notes closer but it's still not good enough.

Is this literally just a case of waiting for Steinberg to respond with a fix or will any upgrades fix this??

I so badly want accurate midi recording like the old days of Atari and Win XP (I don't remember having this problem back then)

Maybe its a 64bit thing???

You are not alone my friend. I have silently been dealing with this ever since SX2. SX1 did not have this problem nor did Cubase VST32. I've had professional keyboard players chew a hole out of me because of this. Sadly, Logic has never had this problem and I'm going to say from Logic 2.0- Logic Pro 10... sigh... In the past I would have them play in logic, then send over the midi file to cubase to continue working. It's not a platform issue, but a cubase issue. Timestamp used to work in Cubase 5, but we're at 8.5... Steinberg :?:
I was made aware of this issue by an online musician/collaborator/friend that advised me of timing issues with my recorded/midi drum tracks. For the longest time I just thought my drum chops were getting rusty. ;) After researching the midi jitter issue I found out that my playing isn't as bad as I thought. :)
The odd thing about this whole scenario is that midi is not audio, it's data. I'm no electronics wizard by any stretch, but one would think that data transfer wouldn't/shouldn't be affected by latency jitter. Data received should have the same timestamp as data sent with no latency compensation needed. Audio latency is accepted because the audio signal needs to go thru converters hence latency is introduced.
Does anyone have a list of DAW's that work on the Windows platform that aren't affected (confirmed) by midi jitter ? I'm interested in downloading their trial software to test the timing/jitter using the LoopBe1 test. Thanks, Steve
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Re: Midi Notes early (or audio is played early)

Post by mitchiemasha » Sun Jan 31, 2016 8:33 pm

To my embarrassment, I realise now that I'm still getting slight timing issue even after the through latency is corrected. The early note has gone, what I experienced with older cubase.

A few things I'd like to rule out by testing in another DAW or some other method. Is it the Hardware. As we're talking a few ms difference between the recordings in my set up, could the hardware generating the sound have this?

I wanted to know the exact ms delay for each asio setting for my hardware synths, setting up the external instruments in cubase, making a note for quick future reference. Each recording triggered by the same midi file returned different results. I used drums for the fast transient response.
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Re: Midi Notes early (or audio is played early)

Post by StudioSteve » Mon Feb 01, 2016 6:49 pm

mitchiemasha wrote:To my embarrassment, I realise now that I'm still getting slight timing issue even after the through latency is corrected. The early note has gone, what I experienced with older cubase.

A few things I'd like to rule out by testing in another DAW or some other method. Is it the Hardware. As we're talking a few ms difference between the recordings in my set up, could the hardware generating the sound have this?

I wanted to know the exact ms delay for each asio setting for my hardware synths, setting up the external instruments in cubase, making a note for quick future reference. Each recording triggered by the same midi file returned different results. I used drums for the fast transient response.
The problem with this particular issue in Cubase 8 Pro as opposed to older versions is that the current jitter issue is random. Some notes are early some are late. Myself and others have verified this using the internal midi routing test mentioned in the now infamous SOS article from a while back. With the internal test (using Loopbe1) the midi signal doesn't leave Cubase, it's passed internally from one track to another, so that negates any external hardware being the cause of this particular issue.

Hopefully Steinberg will be able to solve this problem. I'm wondering if a poll is needed to find out how many users are affected by this problem ? Does anyone think a user poll would get Steinberg's attention ? Steve
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Re: Midi Notes early (or audio is played early)

Post by KDEF2004 » Tue Feb 02, 2016 5:54 pm

StudioSteve wrote:
mitchiemasha wrote:To my embarrassment, I realise now that I'm still getting slight timing issue even after the through latency is corrected. The early note has gone, what I experienced with older cubase.

A few things I'd like to rule out by testing in another DAW or some other method. Is it the Hardware. As we're talking a few ms difference between the recordings in my set up, could the hardware generating the sound have this?

I wanted to know the exact ms delay for each asio setting for my hardware synths, setting up the external instruments in cubase, making a note for quick future reference. Each recording triggered by the same midi file returned different results. I used drums for the fast transient response.
The problem with this particular issue in Cubase 8 Pro as opposed to older versions is that the current jitter issue is random. Some notes are early some are late. Myself and others have verified this using the internal midi routing test mentioned in the now infamous SOS article from a while back. With the internal test (using Loopbe1) the midi signal doesn't leave Cubase, it's passed internally from one track to another, so that negates any external hardware being the cause of this particular issue.

Hopefully Steinberg will be able to solve this problem. I'm wondering if a poll is needed to find out how many users are affected by this problem ? Does anyone think a user poll would get Steinberg's attention ? Steve


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