Mac OS X 10.11 El Capitan status update on compatibility

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Re: Mac OS X 10.11 El Capitan status update on compatibility

Post by hejazzman »

paaltio wrote:
JeffTD wrote:They should've been testing on all the dev betas that went out MONTHS AND MONTHS before the GM candidate was decided on.
I sure hope they haven't. That would be a huge waste of time. Apple has been known to break things in fairly late builds, so it makes no sense for Steinberg to go through the headache of developing on beta OS X and Xcode builds, and then finding it doesn't work after all in GM.
I'm a software developer and have developed for Mac and iOS. That's not how it works. Developer builds are out there for a reason and companies use them. It's not a "huge waste of time" by any means -- it SAVES time from being late with an update when the release comes out.

Sure, Apple (or any other company releasing a new OS) can change something between builds, but there's also a specific roadmap communicated at WWDC, stuff known in advance (new libs added, documented changes to existing APIs and services etc.) that has to be adopted early. It's not like Steinberg has to re-architect large parts of Cubase to keep up with any new beta. And even devoting a couple of programmers would make a big difference in their update coming sooner.

Other, more diligent companies, already have updates out, for equally or even more complex programs (including DAWs).

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Re: Mac OS X 10.11 El Capitan status update on compatibility

Post by paaltio »

hejazzman wrote:I'm a software developer and have developed for Mac and iOS. That's not how it works. Developer builds are out there for a reason and companies use them. It's not a "huge waste of time" by any means -- it SAVES time from being late with an update when the release comes out.
I think we speak of different kind of time-saving here. I mean developer man hours, not time to release. I agree developing for the beta cycle will mean being ready earlier for the new version. And yet, I don't think they should do it.
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Re: Mac OS X 10.11 El Capitan status update on compatibility

Post by lebouch »

hejazzman wrote:
paaltio wrote:
JeffTD wrote:They should've been testing on all the dev betas that went out MONTHS AND MONTHS before the GM candidate was decided on.
I sure hope they haven't. That would be a huge waste of time. Apple has been known to break things in fairly late builds, so it makes no sense for Steinberg to go through the headache of developing on beta OS X and Xcode builds, and then finding it doesn't work after all in GM.
I'm a software developer and have developed for Mac and iOS. That's not how it works. Developer builds are out there for a reason and companies use them. It's not a "huge waste of time" by any means -- it SAVES time from being late with an update when the release comes out.

Sure, Apple (or any other company releasing a new OS) can change something between builds, but there's also a specific roadmap communicated at WWDC, stuff known in advance (new libs added, documented changes to existing APIs and services etc.) that has to be adopted early. It's not like Steinberg has to re-architect large parts of Cubase to keep up with any new beta. And even devoting a couple of programmers would make a big difference in their update coming sooner.

Other, more diligent companies, already have updates out, for equally or even more complex programs (including DAWs).
This.
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Re: Mac OS X 10.11 El Capitan status update on compatibility

Post by paaltio »

One final thought and then I have to go: I think there's also a perception issue here which comes from the fact that Steinberg is very careful about OS updates.

They had the big disclaimer up not to use Windows 10 all these months, but in my own tests there were no issues, so I jumped on it early. Working ten hours a day on it, it took me weeks to even notice what it was they were warning about, and then it was really easy to work around until Microsoft fixed in on their end. Similarly, C8 works on my MacBook Pro with El Capitan just fine. I have no idea what the issues are, but the MBP is not my work computer, so I could've missed something. So do NOT take my word for it.

But I think some other DAW companies would probably just say "oh well" and add the new OSs on the list of supported systems and just consider the issues like any other bug. I think people are aware of that and probably don't update to El Cap before a critical session with any of those programs. At least I hope they don't.

However, it would help if Steinberg communicated a little more clearly what the actual issues are. It's good to give the overall "don't use it yet" warning, but people who are more eager to check out the new OS should have a better idea of what they should expect not to work. The general doom and gloom warnings make it look like Steinberg's software completely breaks every time, which is not true.
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Re: Mac OS X 10.11 El Capitan status update on compatibility

Post by lebouch »

paaltio wrote:One final thought and then I have to go: I think there's also a perception issue here which comes from the fact that Steinberg is very careful about OS updates.

They had the big disclaimer up not to use Windows 10 all these months, but in my own tests there were no issues, so I jumped on it early. Working ten hours a day on it, it took me weeks to even notice what it was they were warning about, and then it was really easy to work around until Microsoft fixed in on their end. Similarly, C8 works on my MacBook Pro with El Capitan just fine. I have no idea what the issues are, but the MBP is not my work computer, so I could've missed something. So do NOT take my word for it.

But I think some other DAW companies would probably just say "oh well" and add the new OSs on the list of supported systems and just consider the issues like any other bug. I think people are aware of that and probably don't update to El Cap before a critical session with any of those programs. At least I hope they don't.

However, it would help if Steinberg communicated a little more clearly what the actual issues are. It's good to give the overall "don't use it yet" warning, but people who are more eager to check out the new OS should have a better idea of what they should expect not to work. The general doom and gloom warnings make it look like Steinberg's software completely breaks every time, which is not true.
Agreed. For me Cubase 8.0.3 worked just fine on El Capitan - it was my Scarlett 18i6 interface which wouldn't play nicely - that's why I personally had to roll back to Yosemite. Focusrite however say the issue is with Steinberg, not Apple...
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Re: Mac OS X 10.11 El Capitan status update on compatibility

Post by lanstrad »

atlatnesiti wrote:As usual, Steinberg can't get things right :(
Somehow, Ableton, Propellehed, Tracktiom and others, managed to have Rl Capitan update OK.
WHY can't Steinberg...?,

Why not blaming Apple instead ? Why does Apple screw everything that is not in the Apple Cult Ecosystem every time they release an update ? ... ;)

And between us: what's so urgent or exciting about 10.11 ? (I'm still looking for this on another machine I have installed it... )

That being said, I also concur that some other DAW softwares tend to be faster in their updating schedule...

Cheers,
Rob
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Re: Mac OS X 10.11 El Capitan status update on compatibility

Post by RonMSCi »

Hi Ed,

Thanks for clarifying here in the forum when we can expect to see some news on progress with the challenges that you have uncovered with respect to the latest update in the Mac OS X implimentation. I have no doubt in my mind that much of the issue list is with the early to market feature improvements and bundle software security fixes model that the two COTS Operating Systems vendors are sadly now hell bent on pursuing, and what that places on the sholders of third party applications developers such as your organisation behind the scenes.

Hopefully the takeaway for you and the management team of Sternberg is that you need to communicate some more detail as to the challenges and assign some time frames or goals to achieve compatibility is something that you really need to do a lot better with future news releases, especially if you wish to retain your level of user product satisfaction.

All the best with the efforts to resolve the compatibility issues and I look forward to some positive and affirmative plans resulting out of the Monday discussions.

Ron Southworth

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Re: Mac OS X 10.11 El Capitan status update on compatibility

Post by Dirk Stegemann »

Fo those not running Steinberg software exclusively, here's a list compiled by sweetwater.com that lists the current state of El Capitan compatibility for most major DAWs.
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Re: Mac OS X 10.11 El Capitan status update on compatibility

Post by lebouch »

pliktro wrote:
Michel Doucet wrote:Taking a break from recording so let's take a look at wassup in the forum ...

A lot of CryBaby … I need El Capitain blablabla if you are dumb enough to upgrade your OS as soon as it came out … LOL

When you are done crying go back making music …
+1
I totally agree with that. Why you guys upgrade to new OS before you know its 100% safe. I'm still with Mavericks and everything is fine. I'll stay there until something BIG will change i.e more performance stability etc....
My goodness. My how many more times does this need to be said? BECAUSE not all of us have a dedicated (very expensive) Mac for our (very expensive) Cubase software. Some of use use our Macs for other, equally valid pursuits.
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Re: Mac OS X 10.11 El Capitan status update on compatibility

Post by SuStudio »

lebouch wrote:
My goodness. My how many more times does this need to be said? BECAUSE not all of us have a dedicated (very expensive) Mac for our (very expensive) Cubase software. Some of use use our Macs for other, equally valid pursuits.
Well even more reason not to upgrade to the latest OS if you're using your machine for other vital tasks. The marginal benefits of upgrading are usually outweighed by the misery that accompanies being a guinea pig.
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Re: Mac OS X 10.11 El Capitan status update on compatibility

Post by lebouch »

SuStudio wrote:
lebouch wrote:
My goodness. My how many more times does this need to be said? BECAUSE not all of us have a dedicated (very expensive) Mac for our (very expensive) Cubase software. Some of use use our Macs for other, equally valid pursuits.
Well even more reason not to upgrade to the latest OS if you're using your machine for other vital tasks. The marginal benefits of upgrading are usually outweighed by the misery that accompanies being a guinea pig.
I can't imagine for one moment that you know better than me if I should upgrade my OS. Or if your idea of a "marginal benefit" matches mine.

FWIW, I upgraded, it didn't work, I rolled back to Yosemite.

Anyway you cut it, Cubase Pro 8 costs a chunk of change and you would expect it to work with a widely previewed, advertised and available (for months to developers or anyone particularly interested) major new operating system.

Waiting til release day, then doing (or at least communicating) nothing for three weeks, then doing nothing again, then publishing a list via Sweetwater of companies who also didn't get their act together, is poor.

If you're happy with that then more power to you.
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Re: Mac OS X 10.11 El Capitan status update on compatibility

Post by SuStudio »

lebouch wrote:
I can't imagine for one moment that you know better than me if I should upgrade my OS.

FWIW, I upgraded, it didn't work, I rolled back to Yosemite.
.
Well you upgraded, it didn't work and now you're back on Yosemite so actually it appears that I did know better than you :lol:

Next time listen to what the moderators say about when to upgrade and you'll do better in the future.

Good luck
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Re: Mac OS X 10.11 El Capitan status update on compatibility

Post by lebouch »

SuStudio wrote:
Well you upgraded, it didn't work and now you're back on Yosemite so actually it appears that I did know better than you :lol:
You're so right. Thank you.
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Re: Mac OS X 10.11 El Capitan status update on compatibility

Post by Dirk Stegemann »

lebouch wrote:Anyway you cut it, Cubase Pro 8 costs a chunk of change and you would expect it to work with a widely previewed, advertised and available (for months to developers or anyone particularly interested) major new operating system.
Testing your software products with early preview versions of a new operating system is very useful to detect major issues. Steinberg does perform such testing, of course.

Minor issues, though, will crop up even in later preview versions, as the OS manufacturer is constantly tweaking the new operating system's behaviour.

Also, not all of a new operating system's known issues are solved by its manufacturer with the first official release version.

I would imagine that it is not easy to decide which is more harming in the long run:
Recommending to upgrade to a new operating system, while there are still unresolved issues, or recommending to refrain from upgrading, even though you might disappoint users.

lebouch wrote:Waiting til release day, then doing (or at least communicating) nothing for three weeks, then doing nothing again, then publishing a list via Sweetwater of companies who also didn't get their act together, is poor.
I agree that transparent communication is a good thing, and helps to create understanding for tough decision making.

Best,
Dirk
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Re: Mac OS X 10.11 El Capitan status update on compatibility

Post by lebouch »

Dirk Stegemann wrote:
lebouch wrote:Anyway you cut it, Cubase Pro 8 costs a chunk of change and you would expect it to work with a widely previewed, advertised and available (for months to developers or anyone particularly interested) major new operating system.
Testing your software products with early preview versions of a new operating system is very useful to detect major issues. Steinberg does perform such testing, of course.

Minor issues, though, will crop up even in later preview versions, as the OS manufacturer is constantly tweaking the new operating system's behaviour.

Also, not all of a new operating system's known issues are solved by its manufacturer with the first official release version.

I would imagine that it is not easy to decide which is more harming in the long run:
Recommending to upgrade to a new operating system, while there are still unresolved issues, or recommending to refrain from upgrading, even though you might disappoint users.

lebouch wrote:Waiting til release day, then doing (or at least communicating) nothing for three weeks, then doing nothing again, then publishing a list via Sweetwater of companies who also didn't get their act together, is poor.
I agree that transparent communication is a good thing, and helps to create understanding for tough decision making.

Best,
Dirk
Hi Dirk,

I concur :-)

This is the first statement that I've seen from Steinberg that mentions any testing prior to the OSX public release - in fact one of your colleagues specifically said that was not the case, so thanks for clarifying.

I totally understand the predicament that an OS upgrade can put you in, but as you say, transparent communication is a good thing. The thing that didn't sit well for me and perhaps others (discounting the fanboys) was Steinberg's apparently casual approach to the whole issue, and not for the first time, regrettably.

Bluntly, the impression formed - perhaps unfairly, was that Steinberg had done nothing prior to release, were not exactly rushing to find a solution, and treating its customers like mushrooms..

Thanks for the reply and good luck sorting things.
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Re: Mac OS X 10.11 El Capitan status update on compatibility

Post by andre4stein »

any update? Can we get an estimated date to have a compatible release?

Thanks

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Re: Mac OS X 10.11 El Capitan status update on compatibility

Post by hejazzman »

andre4stein wrote:any update? Can we get an estimated date to have a compatible release?

Thanks
They'll assemble the project leads in a month or so to form a committee on the matter, which will present its suggestions so that an expert team can start preparing a roadmap for that.

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Re: Mac OS X 10.11 El Capitan status update on compatibility

Post by andre4stein »

what a short and easy process, why to not involve NASA?... forget Cubase, will step to other better maintained, supported and cheap products.

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Re: Mac OS X 10.11 El Capitan status update on compatibility

Post by fuzzydude »

WOW!! What a terrible and unhelpful thread for the most part! Too many assumptions and not enough info to help others move forward.

Regardless of a developers upgrade/update process or policy, my stance is to never trust an upgrade. Too many computer setups, too many variations.

For those who do everything on a single machine, can I suggest you partition your hard-drive and run a dual boot system. E.g. Mavericks on one and e.g. El Capitan on the other. Super critical if you make your living on it.

http://www.macworld.co.uk/how-to/mac-so ... c-3533305/

BACKUP YOUR DRIVE first of course using Time Machine or other and follow the steps on the link above. This will end the need for conversations like these.

Be nice people. I have my gripes with Steinberg on occasion, mostly to do with their communication, but rarely their intent. They are dedicated and hard working people :)
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Re: Mac OS X 10.11 El Capitan status update on compatibility

Post by Patanjali »

hejazzman wrote:... testing should have started with the developer betas, MONTHS AGO -- those are issued by Apple exactly for that purpose, and other developers DO get on with the program.
NO! THEY ARE NOT!

Developer releases are for developers, NOT for testing at all. They are to give app developers an idea of what is going into the new OS 'soup mix' so they can get a heads start on what to put some attention to in regards to what they can start taking advantage of in their app design.

Testing doesn't care about the future. They are about making sure the past won't came back to bite in the !!!. They need stable OSs to test against, otherwise anything already tested may be changed under them, making any effort up until then a waste of time and money.

Between the Developer and Consumer previews of Win8, there were over 100,00 changes. No third-party product team is even going to think about testing as-they-go with that type of change onslaught. It is reasonable to think that similar sorts of change numbers would be happening between OSX previews.

There is a reason why enterprises can take up to two years to implement an OS upgrade. It is all the evaluation, regression testing and app remediation required.

DAWs are probably the most complex prosumer software around. Each one will have differences in architecture, with many parts inherited over many years. Thus they will not all have the same issues with a new OS version.
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Re: Mac OS X 10.11 El Capitan status update on compatibility

Post by jimmys69 »

I just find it disturbing how people who complain about spending dollar amounts under thousands have opinions on how businesses making millions should run their business. It seems obvious that companies such as Microsoft, Apple, Steinberg, and every manufacturer of anything relating to compatibility with any other software or OS would do whatever they can to make it work as soon as possible right? To think that a developer would sit on something just to lose money or credibility would just be asinine to say the least.

Obviously there are issues that the average guy is not privy to.

I for one, wait until they figure it out before upgrading. It just makes sense...
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Re: Mac OS X 10.11 El Capitan status update on compatibility

Post by Patanjali »

jimmys69 wrote:I just find it disturbing how people who complain about spending dollar amounts under thousands have opinions on how businesses making millions should run their business.
I think it comes from thinking that big enterprises are just scaled up versions of consumer thinking, and thus acting with the same impetuousness or obsessions.

However, the same thinking also doesn't seem to countenance that timescales may be scaled up as well, nor that some things may need to be done differently when thousands or millions are dependent upon what you do.

Of course, big businesses are run by people, but logistical practicalities often work to temper their excesses, though those same practicalities can often lead to issues not being addressed in the timeframes customers may want.
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Re: Mac OS X 10.11 El Capitan status update on compatibility

Post by andre4stein »

Pro Tools is working, NI software is working, Logic Pro is (of course) working... and because my audio card is a MOTU I'm also trying Digital Performer... it's working fine. Steinberg software nobody knows when I'll be able to run it again (w/o rollbacks and VM/drive partitioning etc). Those are the FACTS, not opinions & philosophy.
Since I'm working for a Software Company and by many years, I can say that this stupid point of view can be described as not technical and unaware of the development, difficulties etc.. unfortunately it's always reflecting the realty at the end! If all the rest of the world is ok, you can say whatever but it's still a your problem and you have not fixed it at the right time.

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Re: Mac OS X 10.11 El Capitan status update on compatibility

Post by pjcoopjazz »

One option would be to create 2 partitions on your HD, a new one for 10.10 and (the existing HD) for 10.11.1. Run Cubase on 10.10 (of course). You may actually find that you end up with a better (faster and more stable) install since Cubase won't be competing with all the other 'junk' you might normally use (Dropbox, OneDrive, etc..etc..)
You obviously have to have a big enough HD but I think that's what I'm going to do.

Another option would be to use VMware Fusion to create an OS 10.10 on an Virtual Machine with Cubase on it.. (although you'd need a pretty beefy Mac to run Cubase this way).

When the dust has settled and Steinberg sort it all out, just run the updates and delete your 2nd partition (making sure you copy any valuable data off it first!!)

Just my two-penneth.

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Re: Mac OS X 10.11 El Capitan status update on compatibility

Post by hejazzman »

Patanjali wrote:
hejazzman wrote:... testing should have started with the developer betas, MONTHS AGO -- those are issued by Apple exactly for that purpose, and other developers DO get on with the program.
NO! THEY ARE NOT!

Developer releases are for developers, NOT for testing at all. They are to give app developers an idea of what is going into the new OS 'soup mix' so they can get a heads start on what to put some attention to in regards to what they can start taking advantage of in their app design.
I take it you're not a software developer? (I am). You have a confused notion of what testers and developers do. When you have a new beta developer release out for an OS, and an existing program, testers and QA engineers should (and do) test whether the program works with the new OS, create bug reports for any issues found, etc.

You seem to think that testing is only about making sure existing versions of a software work in the stable version of an OS. That's not the case in any major software company. Some smaller shops might do it that way merely out of lack of available resources, but most competent small shops will too test their products with the developer betas to fix whatever needs to be fixed.

That's how all those companies are able to launch updates to fit a new OS on day one or within a couple of weeks.
Patanjali wrote:Between the Developer and Consumer previews of Win8, there were over 100,00 changes. No third-party product team is even going to think about testing as-they-go with that type of change onslaught.
The number of changes doesn't matter at all, since only the ones affecting your product are important. The total number of changes is across all subsystems and programs, including ones not touched by your product at all. E.g. thousands of them would be to the revamped Web engine, etc -- and have nothing to with Cubase.

And of course there's always the GM, released weeks before the new OS, that has few, and usually NONE at all, differences to the final version.
Patanjali wrote:There is a reason why enterprises can take up to two years to implement an OS upgrade. It is all the evaluation, regression testing and app remediation required.
The reason SOME enterprises take "up to two years" to implement an OS upgrade is because enterprises are slow moving behemoths, with tons of legacy crappy code, even stuff depending on IE6, Active X and what have you.

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