Windows 10 Fall Update

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Timo
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Re: Windows 10 Fall Update

Post by Timo » Fri Nov 20, 2015 11:33 am

Hi Pete,

heise and I don't seem to be the only ones misinterpreting this one:
http://www.tenforums.com/windows-10-new ... ion-2.html

The behaviour of Cubase 8.0.20 on Win 10 1511 x86 is like this:
Open Cubase, load a big project (~ 1.2 GB). Leave Cubase open for a night as active window (not in background). Next morning, Cubase's RAM use in Task Manager has dropped to 80 MB, the software stays completely silent. Even a restart of Cubase doesn't help, only a reboot brings back normal behaviour. This was introduced with 1511; the RTM version of Windows 10 works different.

I use Cubase often on stage, and there's always situations where you have to leave it open for an hour or two before you can start playback again. So it is essential for me that the software is immediately ready to use if it is needed. ATM it is not, so I would stay away from Win 10 for my live setup for the time being.

Four questions:
1. Is it possible to limit Compression Store to modern UI apps and exclude legacy apps like Cubase?
2. Is it possible to turn off Compression Store completely?
3. When a 'realtime' software allocates physical memory to avoid paging (like sampler plugins have to for example), will compression store respect this and leave them un-paged AND un-compressed?
4. Are there any options (e g via BCDEDIT, GPO or similar) one can change that have effect on Compression Store?

best regards
Timo
Tanzmusik und Hochzeitsband: The Rainbows - Music & Fun

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Re: Windows 10 Fall Update

Post by Transistor » Fri Nov 20, 2015 7:36 pm

MrSoundman wrote:
Psychlist1972 wrote:
MrSoundman wrote:Thank you Pete for your FUD-fighting!
And thank *you* for having a C64 as your avatar. :)
Pete
Congratulations! The prize goes to you for being the first one to comment on it (and get it right)! :D
Now .... can anyone guess what that little C64 is doing? (no hints!)
Running Pro-16?

r,
j,
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Plugins. Hardware.

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Re: Windows 10 Fall Update

Post by daemondaw » Fri Nov 20, 2015 8:09 pm

Psychlist1972 wrote:
daemondaw wrote:The best solution is - use the media creation tool and reinstall OS from scratch. At first I let Windows get updated via Windows update; but e-licenser gave some error, I guess like plectrumboy mentioned. In disk management it was obvious M$ upgrade process had some bright ideas, so no wonder e-licenser cried....anyway, I used M$ media creation tool and reinstalled OS from scratch. All went OK. No errors. Of course, I always use my tool of choice to format SSD prior reinstalling OS, etc. I know it's a pain in the neck, installing all your programs, plugins, etc... but, personally, I avoid "upgrade OS" route; update 1511 is a big one, so it's best to be setup from zero. At least, in my experience.
Honestly, that'll get old pretty quickly as we do these updates. It's certainly possible to do, but does add a lot of wear to your SSD, and take a good chunk of time.

Also, you may find that the various copy protection tools break at the smallest change. They've been my bane here for some time. I really do wish they were unnecessary. When it gets reported to us, we reach out to the copy protection folks. One example was a fix we put into the Insider builds because the builds were confusing everyone's iLok. We reached out to them, figured out what was happening, and put in a patch. Ultimately it was that the copy protection software was doing some pretty unsupported things, but we patched anyway.

Pete
Thanx for your concern;
It does add a lot of wear to people's nerves, and (what's more important, AND overlooked by majority of people) TIME. I have no doubts there's gonna be new updates.BTW, SSD is my holly sacrifice, I bought a bunch of those, and if it dies sooner than average expectations would be, I don't care. What I DON'T like here is - upgrading process messed the size of my System partition, and left some unallocated space. As I may have mentioned, I'm dealing with System partitions (imaging, deploying...etc) on regular basis, and I simply don't like anyone to play with my partitions. Feel free to disagree playing with your OWN System. So, you may find reinstalling from scratch time consuming, I consider dealing with the system full of X-factor moments much more annoying. Reinstalling e-licenser only might solve one particular problem, but I cannot be bothered with possible similar issues.
I wish you have a good day.

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Psychlist1972
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Re: Windows 10 Fall Update

Post by Psychlist1972 » Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:22 pm

MrSoundman wrote:
Psychlist1972 wrote:
MrSoundman wrote:Thank you Pete for your FUD-fighting!
And thank *you* for having a C64 as your avatar. :)
Pete
Congratulations! The prize goes to you for being the first one to comment on it (and get it right)! :D
Now .... can anyone guess what that little C64 is doing? (no hints!)
SID programmer? It doesn't look quite like a mod tracker. I've never heard of CIAB Software, and this is nothing I recognize off the bat.

Actually, found it, I think. It's C-Lab, not CIAB. Looks like this software:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCigvkjnVTo

I used a Passport MIDI interface with my C128 back in the late 80s. :)

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Re: Windows 10 Fall Update

Post by BasariStudios » Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:37 pm

WillBthr wrote:I upgraded two Cubase 8.1 computers
WTH??? There is Cubase 8.1?
Cubase 8.5 Pro. Windows 7 X64. ASUS SaberTooth X99. Intel I7 5820K. ASUS GTX 960 Strix OC 2GB. 4x8 GB G.SKILL. 2 850 PRO 256GB SSDs. 1 850 EVO 1TB SSD. Acustica: Nebula Server 3 Ultimate (1.4.009), Murano, Titanium, Magenta 3, Navy, Ochre and RED EQ.

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Psychlist1972
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Re: Windows 10 Fall Update

Post by Psychlist1972 » Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:45 pm

Timo wrote:Hi Pete,

heise and I don't seem to be the only ones misinterpreting this one:
http://www.tenforums.com/windows-10-new ... ion-2.html

The behaviour of Cubase 8.0.20 on Win 10 1511 x86 is like this:
Open Cubase, load a big project (~ 1.2 GB). Leave Cubase open for a night as active window (not in background). Next morning, Cubase's RAM use in Task Manager has dropped to 80 MB, the software stays completely silent. Even a restart of Cubase doesn't help, only a reboot brings back normal behaviour. This was introduced with 1511; the RTM version of Windows 10 works different.

I use Cubase often on stage, and there's always situations where you have to leave it open for an hour or two before you can start playback again. So it is essential for me that the software is immediately ready to use if it is needed. ATM it is not, so I would stay away from Win 10 for my live setup for the time being.

Four questions:
1. Is it possible to limit Compression Store to modern UI apps and exclude legacy apps like Cubase?
2. Is it possible to turn off Compression Store completely?
3. When a 'realtime' software allocates physical memory to avoid paging (like sampler plugins have to for example), will compression store respect this and leave them un-paged AND un-compressed?
4. Are there any options (e g via BCDEDIT, GPO or similar) one can change that have effect on Compression Store?

best regards
Timo
The Compression Store is a built-in core part of Windows. I'm not aware of a way to alter its behavior. It's supposed to be completely transparent to applications. And, like I said, the engineers themselves told me it was in RTM/240, so that's what I'm going by. There's always a chance they're mistaken, of course.

On your third question, the decision criteria is the same as what would have been paged to disk in the past. The difference is it gets compressed first.

You're running x86 version of Windows? What's the processor? Any particular reason you're not running 64 bit Windows? Can you also share some specifics about the PC itself? (processor, memory, etc.) Using 32 bit versions of apps and OS is going to lead to a lot more memory pressure.

Also, have you tried 8.0.30 of Cubase?

Let me check with the Steinberg folks and our engineering and see what may be going on here. Is anyone else experiencing issues after the fall update, but not before?

Edit: Also, is all audio silent (including system sounds) or just Cubase?

Pete
Last edited by Psychlist1972 on Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Windows 10 Fall Update

Post by WillB » Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:46 pm

To Basaristudio for your WTF question:
The subject is Windows 10 Fall Update.
It means two - Cubase on Win 8.1 machines. Everyone else seemed to have understood. Maybe you are attempting sarcasm?
Last edited by WillB on Fri Nov 20, 2015 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Nuendo 1, 2, 3 / Cubase 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. HP I7-6700k, RME UFX, Lenovo Thinkpad Workstation W540, RME UCX, Win 10 64b, Halion 5, RND 5033 5043, WaveLab 4-8, DMG EQ & Compression, Limitless RME ADI-8 2x, TAB 76m x2, Calrec PQ1061 x2, Ampex ATR-100 w/ LNP-2, Houston.

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Re: Windows 10 Fall Update

Post by MrSoundman » Fri Nov 20, 2015 10:03 pm

Psychlist1972 wrote: Actually, found it, I think. It's C-Lab, not CIAB. Looks like this software:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCigvkjnVTo

I used a Passport MIDI interface with my C128 back in the late 80s. :)

Pete
Correct, it's C-Lab SuperTrack, written by Gerhard Lengeling, who went on to bigger things (although that might be just a rumour ;) ). The animation is much faster than the real thing ... what you see there is about 5 minutes condensed, that's how long it took to load from 5.25" floppy disk.

(Sorry for going seriously off-topic, mods can move this to the lounge if they want!)
Windows 10 • Cubase 9.5.50 • WaveLab 9.5.50 • SpectraLayers 6.0.10 • HALion 6.3.0 • Groove Agent 5.0.10 • Midex

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Psychlist1972
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Re: Windows 10 Fall Update

Post by Psychlist1972 » Fri Nov 20, 2015 10:04 pm

I've verifed compression store changes. If there's something going on here in the fall update vs. RTM, it's likely not related to the compression store.

From engineering:
There are no changes to compression between 10240 and 10525. It’s enabled in 10240 the same way it is in later builds.

Memory compression takes place when pages would have been written to the pagefile, not proactively in some heuristic. Unless the system is very low on physical memory (last resort), memory compression will always occur at low CPU priority (below normal priority that all processes in Windows get by default) so it would not consume CPU that any normal process would otherwise need to consume.

On the decompression side, the pages are decompressed when they are accessed and the app would have likely taken a hard fault from the pagefile (disk read) so the CPU latency of decompression is much faster than disk IO (even on current SSDs).
IOW, the pages would have been written to the pagefile anyway, but are instead (or first) being compressed.

I want to drill a bit deeper into what's going on here in your test, but it doesn't seem likely that it's related to memory compression.

Pete
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Re: Windows 10 Fall Update

Post by WillB » Sat Nov 21, 2015 6:13 pm

Pete,
I've followed your "column" on Gearslutz during the Win 10 development (I've run W10 Insider since available, Win 10 Mobile too) and I would like to thank you very much for all the information, insight, suggestions, help etc you have given to us Windows users. You obviously put in a lot of your time and effort and it reflects your passion for the technology and creativity.

I started this thread just wanting to report my experience with the Fall Update to other Win 10 Cubase users. I also am responsible for the "Timo" vs, Steinberg Timo confusion related to the "memory compression". I copied Timo's memory compression paragraph from here to the Gearslutz Win 10 thread to hear your comments - and I should have said to you - from "Steinberg Forum" rather than - from Steinberg. But...
The good news is your here on the Steinberg Forum doing what you do best. Thanks again for your invaluable information. I hope you visit often.

WillB or sometimes WillBthr (not sure why!)

PS. Is it true that the upcoming Surface phone running Windows 10 Mobile is capable of running the new Cubase 10 Universal App (with mouse, keyboard and multiple monitors plugged into it) so I can ditch my HP desktop & Thinkpad workstations?
Nuendo 1, 2, 3 / Cubase 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. HP I7-6700k, RME UFX, Lenovo Thinkpad Workstation W540, RME UCX, Win 10 64b, Halion 5, RND 5033 5043, WaveLab 4-8, DMG EQ & Compression, Limitless RME ADI-8 2x, TAB 76m x2, Calrec PQ1061 x2, Ampex ATR-100 w/ LNP-2, Houston.

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Re: Windows 10 Fall Update

Post by aaandima » Mon Nov 23, 2015 6:53 pm

Psychlist1972 wrote:I've verifed compression store changes. If there's something going on here in the fall update vs. RTM, it's likely not related to the compression store.

From engineering:
There are no changes to compression between 10240 and 10525. It’s enabled in 10240 the same way it is in later builds.

Memory compression takes place when pages would have been written to the pagefile, not proactively in some heuristic. Unless the system is very low on physical memory (last resort), memory compression will always occur at low CPU priority (below normal priority that all processes in Windows get by default) so it would not consume CPU that any normal process would otherwise need to consume.

On the decompression side, the pages are decompressed when they are accessed and the app would have likely taken a hard fault from the pagefile (disk read) so the CPU latency of decompression is much faster than disk IO (even on current SSDs).
IOW, the pages would have been written to the pagefile anyway, but are instead (or first) being compressed.

I want to drill a bit deeper into what's going on here in your test, but it doesn't seem likely that it's related to memory compression.

Pete
many thanks Pete - i'am very interested

On my windows 10 i had mostly latency problems- with Windows Store process winstore.mobile.exe

Code: Select all

Process with highest pagefault count:                 winstore.mobile.exe

Total number of hard pagefaults                       13155
Hard pagefault count of hardest hit process:          4554
Highest hard pagefault resolution time (µs):          3123003.102273
After deactivate automatical app updates on Windows Store preferences this pagefaults was gone :o
„Ach, wissen Sie, im Grunde genommen ist die Sache ganz einfach. Es geht nur darum, die richtige Taste zum richtigen Zeitpunkt zu drücken. Das ist schon alles.“ J.S.Bach

Steinberg: Cubase 10 Pro, Dorico 1.1.10, Halion 5/6, Halion Symphonic Orchestra, Groove Agent 5 , Grand 3. WaveLab Pro 9x
Hardware: Win 8.1 Pro ( + Win 10 Pro test system), UR28M,
Fremdtools: Cakewalk Sonar Platinum (lifetime update), Cakewalk BandLab, Presonus Sonar Pro 4+, Presonus Notion 6, Cantabile 3, Synthesizer > UVI Falcon, Waldorf Nave, Iris 2, AAS Strum/Analog/Chromaphone, Factory SugarBytes, Synthmaster, Fathom, Objeq Delay, BreakTweaker. Mix/Mastering > iZotope Neutron Advanced, Ozone Advanced

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Re: Windows 10 Fall Update

Post by neglorpf » Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:45 am

Same deal with mine. I kept getting a message informing me that:

"The Soft e-Licenser stored on this computer seems to be altered in an unrecoverable way.
Please contact your software vendor to solve this issue."

On a Friday night? I don't think so.

Fortunately, because of the resources of the great Cubase user community, I was able to find a solution and, yes, it only required running the e-Licenser maintenance program as an Administrator. From that moment on, all was well in Cubase Land, and so the adventure continues. Thanks once again to all of the wonderful Cubasers - my digital heroes - who play a great part in making Cubase the absolute best!
Roland St.Germain
ELEMENT25 Studio

Intel i7-3770 CPU @ 3.40 GHz, 32GB RAM, MSI MS-7751 Motherboard, Windows 10 Professional, NVIDIA GeForce 710, Steinberg UR242, Cubase Pro 10, WaveLab Elements 9.5.

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