Ability to display both sharps & flats in key editor

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Re: Ability to display both sharps & flats in key editor

Post by Stephen57 » Fri Mar 18, 2016 7:39 pm

raino wrote:Figured this was due for a bump.
+1

Having Flat Keys and, especially, Flat Notes in the Key Editor is more than just a convince, it is essential.

The Chord Track and Chord Assistant have partial implementation of Flat Notes; the harmonic tools within Cubase are impressive and enjoyable to use, but not having the Flat Notes in the Key Editor and Flat Notes and Flat Keys throughout the program is a real, musical deficiency. :-(

I think better in Flat Notes and Flat Keys and really feel uncomfortable having to write a G Minor as G, A#, D (and so on and on). Help us, Cubase team, please! We really need this. Thank you.
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Re: Ability to display both sharps & flats in key editor

Post by SoundsLikeJoe » Fri Mar 18, 2016 7:52 pm

Stephen57 wrote:
raino wrote:Figured this was due for a bump.
+1

Having Flat Keys and, especially, Flat Notes in the Key Editor is more than just a convince, it is essential.

The Chord Track and Chord Assistant have partial implementation of Flat Notes; the harmonic tools within Cubase are impressive and enjoyable to use, but not having the Flat Notes in the Key Editor and Flat Notes and Flat Keys throughout the program is a real, musical deficiency. :-(

I think better in Flat Notes and Flat Keys and really feel uncomfortable having to write a G Minor as G, A#, D (and so on and on). Help us, Cubase team, please! We really need this. Thank you.
I agree completely.

As a professional musician who thinks about notes (and former university professor of music) I find this to be an unbelievable omission. This is going to become something that I feel the need to fight for.
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Re: Ability to display both sharps & flats in key editor

Post by SoundsLikeJoe » Tue Mar 29, 2016 6:25 pm

Keeping the thread alive... and adding a drop of hope.

Traded a few emails with Greg Ondo (Steinberg product specialist extraordinaire) about the lack of flats in the key editor. He said that he "sent that feature request in a report". That's at least some hope that the development team is aware of the concern, and it may be addressed in the future.

No promises.... but some forward progress. Let's keep the dream alive. There may be a day when the key editor doesn't display D# G A# for an Eb major chord.

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Re: Ability to display both sharps & flats in key editor

Post by -steve- » Tue Mar 29, 2016 6:44 pm

I can personally guarantee that the dev team is, and has been aware of this request, in addition to Greg's report(s). This is an old and oft-repeated request.

I would also like to say that saying something like
WHERE ARE THE MODERATORS?!? No official response on the official Cubase forum? Shame!
is unnecessarily, well, shaming. I just don't see the point in speaking like that to people. Also, please note I was the first person to +1 this request. I would really like to see that. In the mean time, I hide the note labels entirely by adjusting the vertical zoom, or by activating Show Note Expression.

I do, intensely, hope they are looking at this for C9.
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Re: Ability to display both sharps & flats in key editor

Post by SoundsLikeJoe » Tue Mar 29, 2016 7:22 pm

SteveInChicago wrote:I would also like to say that saying something like
WHERE ARE THE MODERATORS?!? No official response on the official Cubase forum? Shame!
is unnecessarily, well, shaming. I just don't see the point in speaking like that to people.
:roll: True... frustration abounds while working... thought there had been no mod comment. C'est la vie.

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Re: Ability to display both sharps & flats in key editor

Post by Stephen57 » Wed Mar 30, 2016 7:56 pm

SteveInChicago wrote:I can personally guarantee that the dev team is, and has been aware of this request, in addition to Greg's report(s). This is an old and oft-repeated request.

I would also like to say that saying something like
WHERE ARE THE MODERATORS?!? No official response on the official Cubase forum? Shame!
is unnecessarily, well, shaming. I just don't see the point in speaking like that to people. Also, please note I was the first person to +1 this request. I would really like to see that. In the mean time, I hide the note labels entirely by adjusting the vertical zoom, or by activating Show Note Expression.

I do, intensely, hope they are looking at this for C9.
IMHO, it should be a patch for any and all versions of Pro 8, at least. It's not just an inconvenience, it's a real musical deficiency in Cubase. I don't understand why it has to be this way? The harmonic capabilities of the program are impressive -- chord track, the scale types, the transposition functions are all excellent. I guess there's some deep code issue preventing an easy fix for this? I'm just about one year into Cubase now and this one issue still gnaws at me. It prevents me from really feeling "at home" with Cubase.

Requesting the full circle of fifths for the following -- display in the Key Editor, and for setting the project's Root Key, and for anywhere else in the program it may be needed. Sharp Keys -- G, D, A, E, B, F# (F sharp) and C# (C Sharp), their relative Minor Keys, E Minor, B, Minor, F# Minor, C# Minor, D# Minor, A# Minor; Flat Keys -- F, Bb (B Flat), Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, Cb, their relative Minor Keys, D Minor, G Minor, C Minor, F Minor, Bb Minor, Eb Minor, Ab Minor. No sharps or flats, C Major, A Minor.

( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_of_fifths -- for those who may not know the "Circle of Fifths" )

Anyway, Steve, I didn't like the flame-out either and only want a small, but highly musically-significant correction. It would bring the program a level of musical sophistication and polish that would, I think, earn it even greater respect from all users -- music students, working professionals, instructors and hard-working, dedicated amateurs.

Take care, thanks for posting and for bumping up this topic. :-)
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Re: Ability to display both sharps & flats in key editor

Post by djaychela » Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:54 pm

It's not just a case of "respect" from music students, it's a prerequisite to proper understanding.

Try getting a class of kids who don't read music, or who aren't confident in doing so to enter a piece of music from standard notation. That's not normally that easy.

Now throw in key signatures. That always causes all sorts of problems.

But when you have to explain to the kids that the Bb that they see has to be put in as an A# instead.... that makes it tough. When there are 3 or 4 flats, it's a real bit of mental gymnastics that they have to engage in, and for most at that point it's a bridge too far. I've seen many a class just shut off as a result of this single issue, and it -really- needs fixing. I couldn't give a monkey's about LoopMash 2 or whatever, what I want is when you put a key signature in that the editors all respect the flat/sharp nature of the prevailing key. I don't even care about harmonic minors, etc., just obeying the prevailing flat key if there is one. I swear it would make the first term of each year of AS that I teach about 20% easier.

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Re: Ability to display both sharps & flats in key editor

Post by -steve- » Fri Apr 15, 2016 4:26 am

If the students are entering notes into Cubase from sheet music, why don't they use the score editor?
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Re: Ability to display both sharps & flats in key editor

Post by Stephen57 » Sat Apr 16, 2016 4:38 pm

SteveInChicago wrote:If the students are entering notes into Cubase from sheet music, why don't they use the score editor?


I'd like to see a thread comparing the pros and cons, strengths and weakness, features and benefits, of using Score Editor vs. Key Editor. That would be a topic for another thread, however.

If we're working in the world of Midi editing, as so many of us do, not having our Flat Keys and Flat Chords in the Editors really is a place Cubase needs to be improved. Cubase does wonderful harmony and transpositions, it just needs to include Flat notes, Flat Keys and Flat Chords and currently does not. The Chord Track sort of gets things right, but I still have to enter A#7 for Bb7 and so on. I find it particularly troubling when editing melodic lines in the key editor.

What's odd is that Cubase does put emphasis on tonality and offers a wealth of impressive pitch manipulation tools, and transposition tools, but yet has this one oddity with the lack of the flats.

Whatever harmonic engine is driving all this should be updated so it includes the Flat Notes in all relevant places within the program starting with the Key Editor.
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Re: Ability to display both sharps & flats in key editor

Post by -steve- » Sat Apr 16, 2016 9:15 pm

I imagine this lack has to do with some barrier to programming it, not a philosophical thing.
It looks like a simple thing, but when fonts are involved there's another layer of complexity.

I think that comparison is an extremely personal thing. I use the Key Editor with note labels off, and I can tell what note I am looking at from the background, or by hearing it.
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Re: Ability to display both sharps & flats in key editor

Post by raino » Sun Apr 17, 2016 1:31 am

SteveInChicago wrote:I use the Key Editor with note labels off, and I can tell what note I am looking at from the background, or by hearing it.
Yeah, but you've got real musical skills. Think about the rest of us. :shock:
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Re: Ability to display both sharps & flats in key editor

Post by curteye » Sun Apr 17, 2016 1:48 am

raino wrote:Think about the rest of us.
+1 and true for all users.

No matter if the user is working with 'loops & beats' for a rave
or 'notation & orchestration' for a community event;
we all spend $$ to be able to 'use' this amazing product.

All aspects of the programme should work as well as possible.

As Steve posted,
the Steiny developers are aware of this issue (Yea!)
but in all fairness, this thread has been around for a looooooong time.

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Re: Ability to display both sharps & flats in key editor

Post by -steve- » Sun Apr 17, 2016 2:05 am

raino wrote:
SteveInChicago wrote:I use the Key Editor with note labels off, and I can tell what note I am looking at from the background, or by hearing it.
Yeah, but you've got real musical skills. Think about the rest of us. :shock:
I meant the background with the piano roll, with the different color keys. Maybe others prefer a nice bagel, or croissant, though, and that's okay

But seriously, it was in the context of students entering notes from sheet music.

In any case, I do want actual flats– not just the Key Editor, but in all the menus and fields that only display sharp notes. And I would dearly love to see Cubase understand tonality more globally, and not just in relation to the chord track and score editor.

Let's see what Cubase 9 brings, but tbh, I'm not holding my breath, and I am not going be angry about it, cause that's just pointless. (you see, I am becoming more adaptive in my old age. :roll: )
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Re: Ability to display both sharps & flats in key editor

Post by raino » Sun Apr 17, 2016 7:52 pm

SteveInChicago wrote:
raino wrote:
SteveInChicago wrote:I use the Key Editor with note labels off, and I can tell what note I am looking at from the background, or by hearing it.
Yeah, but you've got real musical skills. Think about the rest of us. :shock:
I meant the background with the piano roll, with the different color keys. Maybe others prefer a nice bagel, or croissant, though, and that's okay

But seriously, it was in the context of students entering notes from sheet music.

In any case, I do want actual flats– not just the Key Editor, but in all the menus and fields that only display sharp notes. And I would dearly love to see Cubase understand tonality more globally, and not just in relation to the chord track and score editor.

Let's see what Cubase 9 brings, but tbh, I'm not holding my breath, and I am not going be angry about it, cause that's just pointless. (you see, I am becoming more adaptive in my old age. :roll: )
Well really I just replied to increase the post-count/issue importance of the thread (and acknowledge your skills, I have seen the video).

I tend to agree with you that it must be a real problem in the code since they know folks want this, it makes musical sense and it is aligned with recent additions like the Chord Track & Pads. I'm sure they want to fix this, which implies there is a significant barrier to doing so. That said, as a recovering programmer it seems like someone must have made a really dumb design decision long ago for this to be difficult to fix.
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Re: Ability to display both sharps & flats in key editor

Post by Stephen57 » Sun Apr 17, 2016 8:45 pm

SteveInChicago wrote:
I use the Key Editor with note labels off, and I can tell what note I am looking at from the background, or by hearing it.
I'll trying working with the labels off! Good suggestion. :) It might just be easier and we do have the keyboard display to the left. I'll give that a try, Steve.
Last edited by Stephen57 on Thu Apr 21, 2016 12:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ability to display both sharps & flats in key editor

Post by raino » Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:26 pm

Stephen57 wrote: I'll trying working with the labels off! Good suggestion. :) It might just be easier and we do have the keyboard display to the left. I'll give that a try, Steve.
Also if you set the note colors to the Chord Track they'll get visual feedback about how the notes they are entering fit into the harmonic structure (assuming you have scale & chord info in the track).

I find when I'm use the right side of the Key Editor window it is easy to incorrectly see which lane lines up with the keyboard on the left. Guess I should take a look at the color preferences for this.
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Re: Ability to display both sharps & flats in key editor

Post by AposMus » Fri May 20, 2016 9:32 pm

The part where this bothers me the most is when it comes to key selection. For instance if you set the pitch corrector plugin to a major key, only C# and F# are keys the rest have to be flat. It always takes me a second to "translate". After studying music and years of practical experience it's hard to adapt to all the mislabeling.

I just entered an A-flat major chord in the key editor and the score editor puts it in as G# C E-flat (facepalm). You'll only find a G# major chord in C# major, not exactly a popular key. I know it's all enharmonic etc. and easily changed on the score, but it's very impractical.

It's a bit like referring to someone from Europe as being "non-non-European" . Technically it's correct but you'll always have to think twice to work out whats going on.
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Re: Ability to display both sharps & flats in key editor

Post by -steve- » Sat May 21, 2016 12:29 am

To be fair the score editor does not suffer from the same problems in this regard as does the key editor.

The score editor follows regular Musical rules, and also allows for customization of accidentals.
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Re: Ability to display both sharps & flats in key editor

Post by AposMus » Sat May 21, 2016 11:18 am

SteveInChicago wrote:To be fair the score editor does not suffer from the same problems in this regard as does the key editor.

The score editor follows regular Musical rules, and also allows for customization of accidentals.
True, the score editor does take some musical rules into account, and like I mentioned that accidentals are easily fixable, but the fact that it will put a G# and E-flat in the same chord shows Cubase's preference for sharps.

Even if your're working in C major the likelihood of using a G# maj instead of A-flat is slim because it will be borrowed from the parallel minor.

Among all the popular DAWs Cubase has always been head and shoulders above any other in catering for the needs of composers and musicians, with a top notch score editor and unparalleled midi editing and processing functions. Which is why I've been using it for the past 17 years.

This is why all the mislabeling throughout Cubase bothers me. Surely if you could setup your project root key to E-flat instead of D# like now, creating the subsequent filter to display the proper notes in the key editor would be less hassle for the dev team.
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Re: Ability to display both sharps & flats in key editor

Post by -steve- » Sat May 21, 2016 12:15 pm

Well. the Project Root Key in Cubase has nothing do with note naming.

The issue with note names is present in lists, Info Line, and Key and List Editors. The Score editor definitely does not mislabel notes. You are seeing G# and Eb in C Major due to the settings in Score Settings>Project>Accidentals.
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Re: Ability to display both sharps & flats in key editor

Post by N_K » Tue May 31, 2016 10:31 am

+1 to possibility to display flats in Key Editor and everywhere else - as well as controlling whether sharps or flats are shown with key signature markers in Event Display. It'd make things clearer when working in diatonic paradigm.

In addition to that, +1 to possibility to use custom note names (for things like numeric pitch class notation) and perhaps a 12-pitch staff. Would be very interesting to try working in numeric pitch class paradigm and see where it leads.

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Re: Ability to display both sharps & flats in key editor

Post by JohnCty » Sun Sep 25, 2016 3:21 am

+1
Any news about this?

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Re: Ability to display both sharps & flats in key editor

Post by raino » Sun Sep 25, 2016 8:05 pm

JohnCty wrote:+1
Any news about this?
No, but Steinberg generally doesn't comment about what's in an update until it is released. So no news is the expected situation. However this has been on various request lists for so long that there is speculation that there is something funky deep in the code that makes resolving this difficult. So we need to keep asking, but not get our hopes up. :roll:
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Re: Ability to display both sharps & flats in key editor

Post by -steve- » Sun Sep 25, 2016 11:43 pm

I am optimistic. 8-)
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Re: Ability to display both sharps & flats in key editor

Post by raino » Mon Sep 26, 2016 12:17 am

SteveInChicago wrote:I am optimistic. 8-)
Probably because you're green while I'm black & white.
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