16 inserts per track

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Re: 16 inserts per track

Post by lukasbrooklyn » Sat Mar 14, 2015 7:01 pm

Outsounder wrote:If you use waves, the free Waves rack is a super plugin, you can load eight plugins into each slot giving a total of 64 as well as save each individual waves rack for specific purposes and plugin chains. The coding to enable other plugin manufacturers to use the rack is freely available from waves.
That's pretty cool.

I almost wish these workarounds were not mentioned in fear SB take the lazy route of calling that an argument against implementing it natively.

SB wake up it's 2015.

+insert slots
+modular plugin connections
+macro control of more plugin pareters at once
system// i7 4930k, w7 x64, c7.5.4, (c8)
audio// RME HDSP, SSL duende, audeze lcd-2, klein&hummel o300, adam s2x, lavry DA, avantone mixcubes, EL Fatso ...

http://www.lukasturza.com // http://www.snapmastering.com // music production / mixing / mastering [hybris, upbeats, noisia, rem koolhaas, czech television, havas, ogilvy, ...]

cubendo supercharged workflow ideas/threads of possible interest:
http://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtop ... 81&t=63450
http://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtop ... 81&t=38182
my supercharged workflow videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ellGhSdmXfk

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Re: 16 inserts per track

Post by magsmccoy » Sat Mar 14, 2015 7:54 pm

+1

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Outsounder
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Re: 16 inserts per track

Post by Outsounder » Tue Mar 17, 2015 12:57 am

lukasbrooklyn wrote:
Outsounder wrote:If you use waves, the free Waves rack is a super plugin, you can load eight plugins into each slot giving a total of 64 as well as save each individual waves rack for specific purposes and plugin chains. The coding to enable other plugin manufacturers to use the rack is freely available from waves.
That's pretty cool.

I almost wish these workarounds were not mentioned in fear SB take the lazy route of calling that an argument against implementing it natively.

SB wake up it's 2015.

+insert slots
+modular plugin connections
+macro control of more plugin pareters at once
It's not so much a work around as a way forward, although it runs as a stand alone Vst insert using the local CPU, it also integrates over LAN card with waves own Asio i/o & DSP server range allowing anything from simple offloading of plugins from local CPU through to some fairly comprehensive solutions, there's a range of interface cards available for a number of Yamaha desks which is quite interesting to Steinberg users, something to keep an eye on maybe.
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Re: 16 inserts per track

Post by lukasbrooklyn » Tue Mar 17, 2015 1:00 am

Outsounder wrote:
lukasbrooklyn wrote:
Outsounder wrote:If you use waves, the free Waves rack is a super plugin, you can load eight plugins into each slot giving a total of 64 as well as save each individual waves rack for specific purposes and plugin chains. The coding to enable other plugin manufacturers to use the rack is freely available from waves.
That's pretty cool.

I almost wish these workarounds were not mentioned in fear SB take the lazy route of calling that an argument against implementing it natively.

SB wake up it's 2015.

+insert slots
+modular plugin connections
+macro control of more plugin pareters at once
It's not so much a work around as a way forward, although it runs as a stand alone Vst insert using the local CPU, it also integrates over LAN card with waves own Asio i/o & DSP server range allowing anything from simple offloading of plugins from local CPU through to some fairly comprehensive solutions, there's a range of interface cards available for a number of Yamaha desks which is quite interesting to Steinberg users, something to keep an eye on maybe.
sounds pretty robust, but again -- nothing will beat a native solution that's tightly embedded into the core of the software that will hopefully allow complex parameter modulations and linking in the future, if steinberg open their eyes to modern production techniques.
system// i7 4930k, w7 x64, c7.5.4, (c8)
audio// RME HDSP, SSL duende, audeze lcd-2, klein&hummel o300, adam s2x, lavry DA, avantone mixcubes, EL Fatso ...

http://www.lukasturza.com // http://www.snapmastering.com // music production / mixing / mastering [hybris, upbeats, noisia, rem koolhaas, czech television, havas, ogilvy, ...]

cubendo supercharged workflow ideas/threads of possible interest:
http://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtop ... 81&t=63450
http://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtop ... 81&t=38182
my supercharged workflow videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ellGhSdmXfk

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Re: 16 inserts per track

Post by Richard Herbert » Tue Mar 17, 2015 10:24 am

Carvin wrote:I generally don't need more than the 6+2 (pre/post fader) when mixing.

But it is quite handy to be able to load a few different compressors, eq's etc, to A/B them, without having to clear/reload different plugin slots.

So it is a yes from me.

PS. For those saying no..........you DON'T have to use them ;)
No but even if people don't use them they might still be affected. For example having inserts open on the inspector and not being able to see anything below it without scrolling down.

I can't see anyone needing more than the current amount if they are actually creating or recording and mixing music rather than playing with a million different plugin chains.

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Re: 16 inserts per track

Post by lukasbrooklyn » Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:51 pm

Richard Herbert wrote:
Carvin wrote:I generally don't need more than the 6+2 (pre/post fader) when mixing.

But it is quite handy to be able to load a few different compressors, eq's etc, to A/B them, without having to clear/reload different plugin slots.

So it is a yes from me.

PS. For those saying no..........you DON'T have to use them ;)
No but even if people don't use them they might still be affected. For example having inserts open on the inspector and not being able to see anything below it without scrolling down.
that's not a valid argument. it's been repeated ad nauseam - features are here as an option, it is not imperative to use them. a daw should either set arbitrary restrictictions to stimulate creativity, or (which is the path cubendo seems to take) -- try to present a blank canvas type of paradigm, and be unobstrusive. in which cubendo party fails, one reason being these types of limitations.
system// i7 4930k, w7 x64, c7.5.4, (c8)
audio// RME HDSP, SSL duende, audeze lcd-2, klein&hummel o300, adam s2x, lavry DA, avantone mixcubes, EL Fatso ...

http://www.lukasturza.com // http://www.snapmastering.com // music production / mixing / mastering [hybris, upbeats, noisia, rem koolhaas, czech television, havas, ogilvy, ...]

cubendo supercharged workflow ideas/threads of possible interest:
http://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtop ... 81&t=63450
http://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtop ... 81&t=38182
my supercharged workflow videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ellGhSdmXfk

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Re: 16 inserts per track

Post by Frozenwave » Wed Mar 18, 2015 5:08 pm

I also need more insert slots. Best solution would be an option so the user can add new slots as needed. This feature is so important to me, I will not buy a new Cubase version anymore without more plugin slots.

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Re: 16 inserts per track

Post by meta-redundant » Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:59 pm

Richard Herbert wrote: I can't see anyone needing more than the current amount if they are actually creating or recording and mixing music rather than playing with a million different plugin chains.
Lol, I'm not one to encourage dissension, but this was exactly the thing I thought when I read this feature request. I've never used more than 5 inserts, ever...even after writing and mixing 60 hours a week. These weird "more, more, more!" requests often confuse me. Less CPU usage - sounds great. Improved workflow - hey, I'm all for it. 1,567,567 insert slots - not so much.

Sarcasm aside, maybe someone could provide a use case? I'm trying to think of a reason SB would want to divert development resources into something like this, other than "...because DAW xyz already has it!"

Keep in mind something like this will greatly impact the rest of us. In what situation is this beneficial? I'm asking seriously here...
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Re: 16 inserts per track

Post by Winter Rat » Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:29 pm

meta-redundant wrote:
Keep in mind something like this will greatly impact the rest of us. In what situation is this beneficial? I'm asking seriously here...

http://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtop ... 82&t=51956
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Re: 16 inserts per track

Post by BriHar » Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:04 pm

Set the track for unity gain, route it to a group and you have 14 pre-fader inserts using the group fader as the actual control fader.
"...yes I think it can be easily done, just take everything down to Highway 61."

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Re: 16 inserts per track

Post by mpayne0 » Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:10 pm

Richard Herbert wrote:
I can't see anyone needing more than the current amount if they are actually creating or recording and mixing music rather than playing with a million different plugin chains.
I'm pretty sure there were a couple folks who wondered why anyone would ever need more then 16 channels for a mix!

I often use or at least check pre-post VU meters, or have a dedicated HPF, or have a console workflow. I have been moving towards more FX with mix knobs to save mixer space when I can, and I like to audition compressors without spending too much time dragging and dropping. In the case of for ex. UAD MKIIs that have 3 versions that need to be A/B'd quickly, it would be nice to have space to load all 3 at once.

I think it's quite a crude ideology to have the flexibility of a computer and not use it. I remember when we first got layers in Adobe. Then we got multiple undo. then we got layer comps and variations, and smart objects. This is smart stuff. it increases my workflow, I am better and more efficient as an artist, and it has improved my skill set. Demands grow, keep up or get out is the way it works here.

I'm equally confused why folks are so against these sort of requests. As an artist, we do realize that this is not a science, and different artists have differing workflows, and there's no rule to it. No one here gets to create the rules for others' music, so yeah I am utterly confused as to an artist having this perspective.

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Re: 16 inserts per track

Post by fretthefret » Sat Mar 21, 2015 2:41 am

I'm all for 16 pre and 4 post slots!

It would be very beneficial in the case of EDM production!

In some sub-genres of EDM the only way to be market competitive is to produce a master directly from the mix.
Attempting to have a mix mastered after mixdown actually ruins things.

As EDM has become the dominant music (about est.60% of total music revenue these days)
It would be a smart move for Steinberg to plan for the next version to have increased slots.

I do think 16 pre and 4 post would satisfy over 98% of the usage scenarios.

Since the tag line in "the producer's choice", it would be a good idea to provide a product that satisfied the needs of the majority of producers.

While I'm at it...
A vocal dub ADR and alignment tool like VocalAlign or Revoice (even that technology licensed) would be great too!

You'd think with VST licensing as a bargaining chip Steinberg could negotiate some better deals or discounts with 3rd party mfgs. for its users!
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Re: 16 inserts per track

Post by BriHar » Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:02 pm

fretthefret wrote:I do think 16 pre and 4 post would satisfy over 98% of the usage scenarios.
Just out of curiosity, what would be your advice for those 2% :?:
"...yes I think it can be easily done, just take everything down to Highway 61."

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Re: 16 inserts per track

Post by fretthefret » Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:21 pm

BriHar wrote:
fretthefret wrote:I do think 16 pre and 4 post would satisfy over 98% of the usage scenarios.
Just out of curiosity, what would be your advice for those 2% :?:
Go to a studio where a professional already knows how to achieve what you want to do in 16 slots or less. :)
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Re: 16 inserts per track

Post by tepa » Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:28 am

fretthefret wrote:
BriHar wrote:
fretthefret wrote:I do think 16 pre and 4 post would satisfy over 98% of the usage scenarios.
Just out of curiosity, what would be your advice for those 2% :?:
Go to a studio where a professional already knows how to achieve what you want to do in 16 slots or less. :)
Not sure if at the moment 98% would use more than the insert available.... But Cubase provide other tools for creativity in addition to the mixing side, I wouln't expect some *creativity" feature in some DAW like ProTools (like their 10 inserts, that we know is more than enought for mixing).

Maybe 100% of the professionnel mixer are happy with the 6 inserts, they don't need more and if they need some extra insert they only have to create a group track..... That's find.
Probably 100% of "sound designer" or tweaker modulation peoples :D would very welcome more insert to feed their track with their pitch, distortion, audio step-sequencer, gate, glitch, granular tools etc.. Plus they would get the big benefit to save those new sound FX in only one track preset (clearer preset managment) ;)

3rd party chain sofware can help in some situation, but stability and extra CPU process is a disadvantage in my case.
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Re: 16 inserts per track

Post by JeremyL » Thu Apr 02, 2015 3:04 pm

fretthefret wrote:I'm all for 16 pre and 4 post slots!

It would be very beneficial in the case of EDM production!

In some sub-genres of EDM the only way to be market competitive is to produce a master directly from the mix.
Attempting to have a mix mastered after mixdown actually ruins things.

As EDM has become the dominant music (about est.60% of total music revenue these days)
It would be a smart move for Steinberg to plan for the next version to have increased slots.

I do think 16 pre and 4 post would satisfy over 98% of the usage scenarios.

Since the tag line in "the producer's choice", it would be a good idea to provide a product that satisfied the needs of the majority of producers.

While I'm at it...
A vocal dub ADR and alignment tool like VocalAlign or Revoice (even that technology licensed) would be great too!

You'd think with VST licensing as a bargaining chip Steinberg could negotiate some better deals or discounts with 3rd party mfgs. for its users!
Have you looked at Revoice Pro 3 yet? It works very well with Cubase, other DAW's or as a standalone and can manipulate both time and pitch

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Re: 16 inserts per track

Post by JayAudion » Thu Apr 02, 2015 4:32 pm

More than eight is ok, I have use for that sometimes,
however I don't really like the unpolite tone with which people call Steinberg names and say eight is ridiculous. It's not ridiculous.

Yes there could cases when you want to go more exotic with a special fx string.
If you want to get fancy you can still string along groups as many as you like. It's not that hard.

A lot of people could try to use fx sends more and inserts less. This will bring more coherency to your mix and save cpu if you need it.

I could imagine more than eight with maybe a scrollbar that shows up along the inserts, or rather, shringking slots.
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Re: 16 inserts per track

Post by tepa » Thu Apr 02, 2015 5:45 pm

JayAudion wrote:
Yes there could cases when you want to go more exotic with a special fx string.
If you want to get fancy you can still string along groups as many as you like. It's not that hard.
Not only for exotic FX, it can be basic as for rythmic stuff, in fact it depend the style of music where sound-design, modulation, "step" FX are very present, or if you are working for video and sound-design, movie, games.....

The main problem is when we save those preset, some are 1 track preset and some are 2 tracks, when recalling, modify, saving them you have to be sure to select the 2 tracks groupe, a mistake is never far when you forget to select the 2 track, the risk is that you can loose half of the preset if one is selected instead of two.
So simple thing like managing preset can become a pain in some case.
JayAudion wrote:
A lot of people could try to use fx sends more and inserts less. This will bring more coherency to your mix and save cpu if you need it.
Yes, to save CPU and have more "coherency", Reverb and Delay usually are sent to Fx channel, but i think poeple asking more insert for "special" fx creation, not because they put reverb and delay on every track, but it's good to mention it in case ;)
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Re: 16 inserts per track

Post by mpayne0 » Fri Apr 03, 2015 2:05 pm

I find that making extra groups just breaks the flow, its just the little thing that kills my momentum.

I really would like to lessen the amount of technical thinking when I'm creating, to make Cubase be discreet and stay out of my way so I can focus on the art. Managing mixer channels and playing plugin Tetris is not something that helps me during a creative moment. Some of us have more tolerance for it than others, that I do understand.

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16 inserts per track

Post by Raphie » Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:37 pm

Each to their own, but why would you need more than 6 inserts?
If you can't get it done with 2 or 3 plugins, you're just stacking and tweaking fir the sake of it. Also stavking more than 4 plugs already starts to sound like mushy *flower*, let alone stacking 8 or nine. It's not a strategy, it's like, let's add a fatnner, now lets add a reverb to get a bit less direct sound, put an eq on top to make up for the lost freqs and then another compressor to glue it back all together and then some tape, because it starts to sound really harsch and now a transient shaper because the tape made it a bit dull... :) that's not mixing, that's goofing around....
I'm fine if you guys think you need more, but as long as i don't see them and it doesn't affect the current mixer gui. Seriously thought why that many? :)
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Re: 16 inserts per track

Post by lukasbrooklyn » Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:54 pm

Raphie wrote:Each to their own, but why would you need more than 6 inserts?
If you can't get it done with 2 or 3 plugins, you're just stacking and tweaking fir the sake of it. Also stavking more than 4 plugs already starts to sound like mushy *flower*, let alone stacking 8 or nine. It's not a strategy, it's like, let's add a fatnner, now lets add a reverb to get a bit less direct sound, put an eq on top to make up for the lost freqs and then another compressor to glue it back all together and then some tape, because it starts to sound really harsch and now a transient shaper because the tape made it a bit dull... :) that's not mixing, that's goofing around....
I'm fine if you guys think you need more, but as long as i don't see them and it doesn't affect the current mixer gui. Seriously thought why that many? :)
like stated many times, everyone's workflow and objectives are different. sounddesign often relies on chains of plugins for unpredictable results that you later try to resample and somehow tame. it's a legitimate technique.

and a more conservative technique, when mixing, and inserts are still not sufficient: i try three different console emulations for A/B (let's say slate, satson and waves nls, bypassing two of them at a time to reference). followed by a MS matrixer plugin plugin before my external compressor insert, and a MS matrix after. that's 6 pre-fader slots gone and i haven't really done anything 'creative' to the channel yet.
system// i7 4930k, w7 x64, c7.5.4, (c8)
audio// RME HDSP, SSL duende, audeze lcd-2, klein&hummel o300, adam s2x, lavry DA, avantone mixcubes, EL Fatso ...

http://www.lukasturza.com // http://www.snapmastering.com // music production / mixing / mastering [hybris, upbeats, noisia, rem koolhaas, czech television, havas, ogilvy, ...]

cubendo supercharged workflow ideas/threads of possible interest:
http://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtop ... 81&t=63450
http://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtop ... 81&t=38182
my supercharged workflow videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ellGhSdmXfk

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16 inserts per track

Post by Raphie » Fri Apr 03, 2015 4:57 pm

Yeah ok, I guess if that's how you work and you fight all those battles in a project Then you "need" a lot of slots. I don't care if Cubase gets unlimited inserts via +1 method (last slot filled a new one appears underneath) but I don't want 16 inserts in a scroll-over and certainly don't want the mixer or Cubase performance to suffer because of it.
But if it makes some of the "undecided sounddesigners" happy? Why not....
It's not for me to decide on your workflow, but I would call Satson, Waves NLS AND slate competing on channel by channel and project by project basis, the engineer having issues. But that's just my humble opinion :)
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Re: 16 inserts per track

Post by Frozenwave » Sun Jun 07, 2015 5:05 pm

Raphie wrote:Each to their own, but why would you need more than 6 inserts?
EQ with a Butterworth HP
EQ for broad shapes before distortion unit
Distortion Unit
Tape Emulation
Console Emulation
A Delay
A "creative" plugin like Effectrix
Maybe a tiny amount track specific chorus
One Compressor to cut a tiny amount of unwanted peaks
A compressor for the dynamic movement
Maybe a tiny amount of s widening
Maybe the track needs to be ducked by a SC compressor
Maybe a track specific reverb and not a send

and so on and so forth.

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Raphie
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Re: 16 inserts per track

Post by Raphie » Sun Jun 07, 2015 8:52 pm

LOL, that's crazy. That has nothing to do with a vision or sound design, that's just keep on adding, fingers crossed, until you find something to your liking :)
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Frozenwave
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Re: 16 inserts per track

Post by Frozenwave » Mon Jun 08, 2015 12:11 am

Says the big mouth man who got his ass served by Steven Slate :lol:

You have no clue what you are talking about man.

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