PLEASE eliminate hovering in the mixer!

All feature requests and suggestions for upcoming releases of Cubase Pro 8, Cubase Artist 8 and Cubase Elements 8 can be posted here.
barryfell
Member
Posts: 276
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:41 pm
Contact:

Re: For the love of God, PLEASE eliminate hovering in the mi

Post by barryfell » Sun Feb 15, 2015 5:58 pm

buzzlegs wrote:
barryfell wrote:
No, but that doesn't mean I would misclick less if there were more/smaller buttons.

Have you used a Cubase version proir to v7/8?... did you ever mixclick in Cubase before v7/8?... i've been using Cubase since the mid 90's and have never misclicked before until v7/8. It is a problem with this design.
Yes I used a few versions of SX before I left Cubase until v8. I personally prefer the new modular scalable mixconsole. I speeds up having to jump around as much as I remember in the old mixer. There were plenty little buttons that could be mis-clicked in the old mixer.
Windows 10 / Cubase Pro 9.5 x64

barryfell
Member
Posts: 276
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:41 pm
Contact:

Re: For the love of God, PLEASE eliminate hovering in the mi

Post by barryfell » Sun Feb 15, 2015 5:59 pm

buzzlegs wrote:
barryfell wrote: I believe the reduction in visible options may even speed up the use for some people.

I'm sorry but that's just a ridiculous thing to say, less visible options speed things up???... i've heard it all now...
Actually having less options to choose between speeds up the decision process. A cluttered UI is often slower to use than a streamlined one.

You need to think about the cumulative effect of the design rather than elements in isolation.
Windows 10 / Cubase Pro 9.5 x64

buzzlegs
Junior Member
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:10 pm
Contact:

Re: For the love of God, PLEASE eliminate hovering in the mi

Post by buzzlegs » Sun Feb 15, 2015 6:06 pm

barryfell wrote: There were plenty little buttons that could be mis-clicked in the old mixer.

A cluttered UI is often slower to use than a streamlined one.
Well i'd used Cubase prior to v7 for 16/17 years and never misclicked once before.

why do people think real buttons would mean it's cluttered?.. this is just silly and being lazy in design, it is possible to design a scalable mixer with real buttons that's not cluttered!!... i suppose you think a real hardware mixing desk is too cluttered too with all those knobs etc...!;)

barryfell
Member
Posts: 276
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:41 pm
Contact:

Re: For the love of God, PLEASE eliminate hovering in the mi

Post by barryfell » Sun Feb 15, 2015 6:28 pm

buzzlegs wrote:
barryfell wrote: There were plenty little buttons that could be mis-clicked in the old mixer.

A cluttered UI is often slower to use than a streamlined one.
Well i'd used Cubase prior to v7 for 16/17 years and never misclicked once before.
I'm not sure how you manage to misclick now then if you have such great hand eye co-ordination.
why do people think real buttons would mean it's cluttered?.. this is just silly and being lazy in design,
Are you honestly asking why more stuff means more clutter? :?
it is possible to design a scalable mixer with real buttons that's not cluttered!!...
It may well be. Hopefully Steinberg can come up with an elegant solution that appeases both of us. :)
i suppose you think a real hardware mixing desk is too cluttered too with all those knobs etc...!;)
That all depends on how many parameters it has per channel. Some are too cluttered IMO, with knobs annoying close together for example and fiddly little buttons, but I appreciate that can be out of necessity for obvious reasons compared to software. There are of course good and bad hardware mixers designs.
Windows 10 / Cubase Pro 9.5 x64

buzzlegs
Junior Member
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:10 pm
Contact:

Re: For the love of God, PLEASE eliminate hovering in the mi

Post by buzzlegs » Sun Feb 15, 2015 6:31 pm

barryfell wrote:
I'm not sure how you manage to misclick now then if you have such great hand eye co-ordination.
It's called brain muscle memory that i mentioned earlier, when you can see the buttons you can hit them.

buzzlegs
Junior Member
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:10 pm
Contact:

Re: For the love of God, PLEASE eliminate hovering in the mi

Post by buzzlegs » Sun Feb 15, 2015 6:36 pm

barryfell wrote: Are you honestly asking why more stuff means more clutter? :?

No, i'm asking why you think more stuff means more clutter?... i have a studio that's full of bits and pieces, it's not cluttered though, just functional, more things do not equal more clutter, it's how you organise/design it.

I'm assuming in your living room there is no furniture or books or anything?.. just an empty room as everything else would clutter it!;)

barryfell
Member
Posts: 276
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:41 pm
Contact:

Re: For the love of God, PLEASE eliminate hovering in the mi

Post by barryfell » Sun Feb 15, 2015 6:51 pm

buzzlegs wrote:
barryfell wrote:
I'm not sure how you manage to misclick now then if you have such great hand eye co-ordination.
It's called brain muscle memory that i mentioned earlier, when you can see the buttons you can hit them.
Visibility isn't necessary for muscle memory though. Muscle memory is based on physical position.
Windows 10 / Cubase Pro 9.5 x64

barryfell
Member
Posts: 276
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:41 pm
Contact:

Re: For the love of God, PLEASE eliminate hovering in the mi

Post by barryfell » Sun Feb 15, 2015 6:59 pm

buzzlegs wrote:
barryfell wrote: Are you honestly asking why more stuff means more clutter? :?

No, i'm asking why you think more stuff means more clutter?... i have a studio that's full of bits and pieces, it's not cluttered though, just functional, more things do not equal more clutter, it's how you organise/design it.

I'm assuming in your living room there is no furniture or books or anything?.. just an empty room as everything else would clutter it!;)
Which one is more cluttered?

A)
Image

or

B)
Image

I agree it's how you organise it though. If there is an good way to show a lot of information then so be it, but of course more elements are more prone to creating clutter.

I'm saying there can be a happy medium between simplicity and quantity via good design, and that doesn't mean showing too many parameters at once. On the other hand I admit too little is also dysfunctional.

For the record my living room is pretty minimal though. I hate clutter. :D
Windows 10 / Cubase Pro 9.5 x64

buzzlegs
Junior Member
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:10 pm
Contact:

Re: For the love of God, PLEASE eliminate hovering in the mi

Post by buzzlegs » Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:13 pm

barryfell wrote: Muscle memory is based on physical position.

Exactly my point!!!... when it's (the buttons) physical position is not there until you hover over it the brain muscle does not have time to learn because you constantly have to think about where to place your mouse all the time. It's especially obvious when you work on a mixer with proper buttons after using c7/8 for awhile, it's why no one complaned about mis-clicking before v7/8.

It's also why we can drive without 'thinking' as all the tools you need have been learnt because you can see where to place your hands/feet at all times, imagine having your clutch or brake pedal invisible until you need it, your brain would have to think about where to place your feet all the time, even if it was in the same place all the time, it's how muscle memory works.

barryfell
Member
Posts: 276
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:41 pm
Contact:

Re: For the love of God, PLEASE eliminate hovering in the mi

Post by barryfell » Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:17 pm

buzzlegs wrote:
barryfell wrote: Muscle memory is based on physical position.

Exactly my point!!!... when it's (the buttons) physical position is not there until you hover over it the brain muscle does not have time to learn because you constantly have to think about where to place your mouse all the time. It's especially obvious when you work on a mixer with proper buttons after using c7/8 for awhile, it's why no one complaned about mis-clicking before v7/8.

It's also why we can drive without 'thinking' as all the tools you need have been learnt because you can see where to place your hands/feet at all times, imagine having your clutch or brake pedal invisible until you need it, your brain would have to think about where to place your feet all the time, even if it was in the same place all the time, it's how muscle memory works.
The buttons are always in the same place, so there is no need to think about where they will be, therefore the muscle memory argument doesn't hold up.

Muscle memory means you don't need to see what you are doing. I hope you aren't looking at your cars controls when you are driving for example.
Windows 10 / Cubase Pro 9.5 x64

buzzlegs
Junior Member
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:10 pm
Contact:

Re: For the love of God, PLEASE eliminate hovering in the mi

Post by buzzlegs » Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:24 pm

barryfell wrote:
Muscle memory means you don't need to see what you are doing. I hope you aren't looking at your cars controls when you are driving for example.

you're missing the point entirely, that's exactly why you don't have to see the controls, because you've learnt through musicle memory to know where they are. If you were never able to see them (only by hovering your feet over them), you'd never learn and would always have to have a quick look to see where your feet should be.

You've bascially proved my point, thanks!;)

barryfell
Member
Posts: 276
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:41 pm
Contact:

Re: For the love of God, PLEASE eliminate hovering in the mi

Post by barryfell » Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:30 pm

buzzlegs wrote:
barryfell wrote:
Muscle memory means you don't need to see what you are doing. I hope you aren't looking at your cars controls when you are driving for example.

you're missing the point entirely, that's exactly why you don't have to see the controls, because you've learnt through musicle memory to know where they are. If you were never able to see them (only by hovering your feet over them), you'd never learn and would always have to have a quick look to see where your feet should be.
If they only appeared when you put your hands/feet near them you would still learn where they were without looking very quickly. It's not like you are a dog at the controls of a helicopter! :lol:
You've bascially proved my point, thanks!;)
No your point is invalid. :P
Windows 10 / Cubase Pro 9.5 x64

buzzlegs
Junior Member
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:10 pm
Contact:

Re: For the love of God, PLEASE eliminate hovering in the mi

Post by buzzlegs » Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:46 pm

Ok i'm out, you're clearly a fan of having a mixer with little to no info unless you hover over something, you must like the additional work involved in working with an invisible mixer.

barryfell
Member
Posts: 276
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:41 pm
Contact:

Re: For the love of God, PLEASE eliminate hovering in the mi

Post by barryfell » Sun Feb 15, 2015 8:00 pm

buzzlegs wrote:Ok i'm out, you're clearly a fan of having a mixer with little to no info unless you hover over something, you must like the additional work involved in working with an invisible mixer.
No I just like having less clutter so I can focus on what I want to more easily. Some elements not being on permanent show works well for me overall. :)

As I said a while back, we'll just need to agree to disagree. There is no right or wrong answer here IMO, as it's what works best for us each personally.
Windows 10 / Cubase Pro 9.5 x64

User avatar
Rotund
Member
Posts: 619
Joined: Fri May 25, 2012 8:37 pm
Contact:

Re: For the love of God, PLEASE eliminate hovering in the mi

Post by Rotund » Sun Feb 15, 2015 10:48 pm

Right click on the "Pre" tab in the racks.
Select "Show Pre/Filters as...Separate Label and Setting."
Right click on the "Sends" tab and select "Show Sends as...Separate Destination and Gain"

This changes the view and takes up more space but your settings will be visible all the time...
...If you have the rack open and then scroll up or down to see them that is.

I keep the Routing, Pre, Inserts and Sends racks open all the time.
I do a lot of scrolling up and down in the rack.

I hate the hovering too. I'm always ready to go before it is.
The chances of mis-clicking are multiplied because of it.
Inboard:
Win7Pro 64Bit, i7 3770k, Gigabyte Z77-UHD5, 12gb Corsair (1600Mhz), Nuendo+Nek 6.5, Reaper 4.591, Samplitude Pro X2, Studio One 3.5, CD Architect 5.2, RME Raydat, UAD PCIe Quad+Duo.

Outboard:
Moog Model D (Vintage), Sub 37, Minitaur, Slim Phatty, DSI OB-6 Desktop, Prophet Rev2 8 Voice, Roland Integra 7, SE-02, Korg Prologue 16, Triton Le, Boss Dr. Rhythm DR-55, Sound Gizmo.

User avatar
Starsprinkler
Member
Posts: 294
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:35 pm
Contact:

Re: For the love of God, PLEASE eliminate hovering in the mi

Post by Starsprinkler » Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:33 am

Headlands wrote: 2. In the High-Cut and Low-Cut boxes: Put the value ... on the right side of the box. Done.
... AND why not abbreviate High-Cut and Low-Cut to HC and LC
Yes, but since there's not room for both description text and values, they could/should just remove the description text and show only the value instead (and "HC"/"LC" if the channel is wide enough). The description text is in the tooltip anyway. Yes of course it's the values that should be shown permanently, instead of repeating the description text many times, hiding the values...

But to keep everybody happy, it could be as an option described below.
Rotund wrote:Right click on the "Pre" tab in the racks.
Select "Show Pre/Filters as...Separate Label and Setting."
Yes, this will show the values without hovering. It takes more space though, two rows and repeating the words "High-Cut", "Low-Cut", "Gain" over and over again for every channel.

To avoid this space wasting clutter, they could introduce a new choice: "Show Pre/Filters as...Setting only".
That alternative would show the values only. The description is in the tooltip anyway.
If the channel is wide enough, it could also show "HC" and LC".

For Sends, similarly there could be an option to prioritize to show gain values, and hover for destination, instead of the opposite (even if the option "Separate Destination/Gain" is a rational choice here).

folkfreak
Member
Posts: 553
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:46 pm
Contact:

Re: For the love of God, PLEASE eliminate hovering in the mi

Post by folkfreak » Mon Feb 16, 2015 4:46 am

barryfell wrote: but don't assume it's annoying/slowing down everyone else.
You assume wrong

barryfell
Member
Posts: 276
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:41 pm
Contact:

Re: For the love of God, PLEASE eliminate hovering in the mi

Post by barryfell » Mon Feb 16, 2015 5:57 am

folkfreak wrote:
barryfell wrote: but don't assume it's annoying/slowing down everyone else.
You assume wrong
That's a statement that can be shown to be wrong by reading any thread on this. Are you seriously trying to claim people like me are just saying we don't find it annoying/slow? :?
Windows 10 / Cubase Pro 9.5 x64

User avatar
Starsprinkler
Member
Posts: 294
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:35 pm
Contact:

Re: For the love of God, PLEASE eliminate hovering in the mi

Post by Starsprinkler » Mon Feb 16, 2015 7:21 am

Headlands wrote:Agreed! Great idea. And very simple.
I just entered a Feature Request for this:
http://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtop ... 28&t=75402

barryfell
Member
Posts: 276
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:41 pm
Contact:

Re: For the love of God, PLEASE eliminate hovering in the mi

Post by barryfell » Mon Feb 16, 2015 8:40 am

Rotund wrote:Right click on the "Pre" tab in the racks.
Select "Show Pre/Filters as...Separate Label and Setting."
Right click on the "Sends" tab and select "Show Sends as...Separate Destination and Gain"

This changes the view and takes up more space but your settings will be visible all the time...
...If you have the rack open and then scroll up or down to see them that is.

I keep the Routing, Pre, Inserts and Sends racks open all the time.
I do a lot of scrolling up and down in the rack.
Oh nice, i'd overlooked that option. Great for those who need to see the exact values at the expense of compactness and lack of clutter. I'd say the largely solves many people's complaints, but I agree with Starsprinkler that they should add an option for value only to appease those that are happy to not have what the parameter is on permanent display.
I hate the hovering too. I'm always ready to go before it is.
The chances of mis-clicking are multiplied because of it.
I sometimes wonder if other peoples buttons pop up slower than mine do, as they are close enough to be instant for me to never be aware of waiting on them.
Windows 10 / Cubase Pro 9.5 x64

buzzlegs
Junior Member
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:10 pm
Contact:

Re: For the love of God, PLEASE eliminate hovering in the mi

Post by buzzlegs » Mon Feb 16, 2015 9:44 am

barryfell wrote: I sometimes wonder if other peoples buttons pop up slower than mine do, as they are close enough to be instant for me to never be aware of waiting on them.

No, i would hazard a guess that you work at slower speeds than other people, that's probably why the hovering doesn't bother you.

barryfell
Member
Posts: 276
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:41 pm
Contact:

Re: For the love of God, PLEASE eliminate hovering in the mi

Post by barryfell » Mon Feb 16, 2015 9:50 am

buzzlegs wrote:
barryfell wrote: I sometimes wonder if other peoples buttons pop up slower than mine do, as they are close enough to be instant for me to never be aware of waiting on them.
No, i would hazard a guess that you work at slower speeds than other people, that's probably why the hovering doesn't bother you.
Let's have a race. :D

Meet me at the old storm drain channel at west and third tomorrow at 4pm. Bring your best mouse!
Windows 10 / Cubase Pro 9.5 x64

themarqueeyears
Junior Member
Posts: 182
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:43 pm
Contact:

Re: For the love of God, PLEASE eliminate hovering in the mi

Post by themarqueeyears » Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:15 pm

If I was a DAW developer, I'd have a big sign on the office wall saying

"You can't please all of the people all of the time"

It imagine it would stop you going crazy!

So without the pain of having to read the whole thread.

What the problem with "hovering in the mixer"?

There's nothing especially awkward about it, at least I haven't noticed it effecting my workflow
in terms of the other 1000's of mouse and keyboard movements you have to make in a session to operate a modern DAW and dozens if not hundreds of plugins.

msy
Member
Posts: 329
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:37 pm
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: For the love of God, PLEASE eliminate hovering in the mi

Post by msy » Mon Feb 16, 2015 2:28 pm

themarqueeyears wrote:There's nothing especially awkward about it, at least I haven't noticed it effecting my workflow in terms of the other 1000's of mouse and keyboard movements you have to make in a session to operate a modern DAW and dozens if not hundreds of plugins.
This clearly shows the current way of working is not optimal.. to say the least. ;)

Image
Cubase Pro 9.5.41 on Windows 7 using jBridge for 32bit plugins (production)
Cubase 10.5.0 in Windows 7 (testing...)
HALion 6.3
Soundcard: RME Digiface USB with ADA8200
DAW: Intel Core i7 4790K @ 4.6 GHz |
ASRock X79 Extreme4 | 8GB DDR3 1600MHz | Samsung EVO SSD 250GB | 2x2TB SATA2 | Geforce 460Ti
Computer related hardware: UAD-2 Duo, Behringer BCF2000 (MCU), Nord Lead 4, Eurorack (12U) via ES3/ADAT

tekniq
Junior Member
Posts: 198
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:28 pm
Contact:

Re: For the love of God, PLEASE eliminate hovering in the mi

Post by tekniq » Mon Feb 16, 2015 2:32 pm

its pretty bad that the button have an invisible border! hover is bad - its just bad!

I dont know what to say. How could someone come up with this idea in the first place? after trying - how could this be implemented - over other stuff?

Is this some form ogf maso?

maybe if all we cubase users throw together some $ and just buy steinberg? and let them work for us and our ideas with toggles for everything?

how sounds that?

How much is Steinberg worth? how many users are we actually? maybe it could work?

lets say Steinberg is worth 30 Million $ (SB was bought by yamaha for under 30M)

and we are 30.000 Users. thats 1000 $ each. doesnt sound so unrealistic?

lets buy it and make it good again! I want always on top mixer and no hover.. thats all for it now. would be worth 1000$ for me - if I had a share of SB too that gave me some $ every year!! I would do it.. its a no-brainer!

actually I consider a user driven Cubase much better - because we actually WORK with it! I think the user numbers would rise too! it would be the best DAW on the market ;)

just imagine: 1000$ for your perfect Cubase version? easy worth it.. its even cheaper than nuendo ^^
Mein Cubase Arbeitsplatz

Locked

Return to “Feature Requests and Suggestions”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests