Renders taking 2 - 3x real-time length

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richardjay
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Re: Renders taking 2 - 3x real-time length

Post by richardjay »

bob99 wrote:
Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:55 am
PG wrote:
Sat Jul 15, 2017 7:03 am
Having an empty track with cpu expensive plugins is a rare situation, I would say. Making WaveLab constantly watch if the track has been dropped a clip to activate or not the track plugins, is some kind of overhead.
AFAIK, this is the same in any DAW.
I thought many programs had switched over to doing that, but maybe I'm wrong.
I don't think you're wrong bob99 ... For starters, Cubase has an option for VST3 plugins: "Suspend VST 3 plug-in processing when no audio signals are received". I don't know what it does with non-VST3, but I mostly use VST3 in WL and Cubase anyway.

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Re: Renders taking 2 - 3x real-time length

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richardjay wrote:
Sat Jul 15, 2017 10:04 am
I don't think you're wrong bob99 ... For starters, Cubase has an option for VST3 plugins: "Suspend VST 3 plug-in processing when no audio signals are received". I don't know what it does with non-VST3, but I mostly use VST3 in WL and Cubase anyway.
There's another program that has a playback setting called Run FX When Stopped, which if you uncheck that, it takes care of the playback glitching/dropout problem with any plugins, VST2 or VST3. I think most programs have probably come up with something in the recent past to address the case of many tracks with a theoretical staircase of clips, all tracks unmuted, and track fx chains on all tracks. Googling I see Logic and Pro Tools, and I'd be surprised if Sequoia didn't do something about this.

There's an old thread here somewhere about the difference (or non-difference, I can't remember) between Cubase and Wavelab in this regard but I'd have to dig it up.

Not knowing anything about it really, I thought even track automation took care of this in some cases.
Last edited by bob99 on Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Renders taking 2 - 3x real-time length

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Sorry, I'm wrong about the "other program". That setting only makes the problem disappear completely if there are no clips on the other tracks, or maybe a few clips on a few tracks. If there are clips on everything, it makes the problem "better". But I think there are other tweaks in there that do more, but as always I might be wrong about that.

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Re: Renders taking 2 - 3x real-time length

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Richard, you're right about the VST3 setting in Cubase. That works great, and does exactly what you want. I had no idea that's how Cubase handled this. I really hope this is added to Wavelab, because it would take care of at least part of the load. It's what I've always wondered how other programs could possibly handle many tracks with track fx in a mastering setup of this type.

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Re: Renders taking 2 - 3x real-time length

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Just wanted to +1 this feature request again. Suspending plugin processing when there is no signal present would give Wavelab users a whole other way to set up a mastering session if they wanted to, using Track FX chains exclusively, and more FX, on many Tracks for clips staggered or staircased in a montage.

Apparently the option for VST3 has been in Cubase (and Nuendo I believe) for many years and the option is on by default, if I'm not mistaken.

Logic and Pro Tools effectively do the same thing.
https://forum.juce.com/t/logic-disables ... gion/17570

It just seems so much more efficient, and would allow many many more tracks and fx before processing limits are hit for playback, causing glitching or dropouts. Or dramatically slowing down certain renders with unnecessary processing.

Even if there are a mix of VST3 and VST used, it seems it would still help a lot.

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Re: Renders taking 2 - 3x real-time length

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I can't believe this has still not been fixed. I have Audio Montages with 10 tracks that have plugins on each track and the only way I can listen to the montage is to solo each track. Such a workflow killer.

PG - are you going to be addressing this at all ?

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Re: Renders taking 2 - 3x real-time length

Post by PG »

If you have no plugin, rendering is very fast. IOW, the bottleneck is your plugins's processing time. What WaveLab can do?
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Re: Renders taking 2 - 3x real-time length

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I don't think you understand the problem. When I am listening to a stereo track in an Audio Montage that has, say, 10 stereo tracks, all of them with plugins on them, those tracks that have no audio playing on them should have their plugins ignored, just like Cubase, Logic, etc.

The bottleneck is Wavelab not the plugins !

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Re: Renders taking 2 - 3x real-time length

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I think you're getting confused by the title of this thread. The issue I am referring to came up halfway through the thread, here:
richardjay wrote:
Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:13 pm
Having done some more investigation on this, it's not just the Render of multiple tracks with plugins on each track which is badly implemented: it's also the playback.

It seems that when playing back, say 10 stereo tracks with plugin chains on all tracks, but only one stereo track has an active audio file, WL is still processing the plugins on all the other 9 tracks ... even though there is no audio file being played on those. I came to this conclusion after adding a 10th track to WL and suddenly being completely unable to listen to any part of the montage without it glitching. Remove the plugins from that 10th track and all was OK again.

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Re: Renders taking 2 - 3x real-time length

Post by PG »

those tracks that have no audio playing on them should have their plugins ignored, just like Cubase, Logic
This feature is on the plugin side. That is, if there is silence (no audio), WaveLab tells the plugins. Then that is the responsibility of the plugin to bypass its processing.
Not all plugin support this VST-3 only feature.
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Re: Renders taking 2 - 3x real-time length

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I'm very surprised to hear that Wavelab already suspends processing for VST3 plugins when there is no audio, because I only use VST3 plugins yet I have this problem on every single Audio Montage project.

I use Waves, DMG Audio and Plugin Alliance plugins. How can I tell which plugins do not support this feature ?

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Re: Renders taking 2 - 3x real-time length

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WaveLab does not suspend processing: it tells the plugins "you can suspend your processing".
But WaveLab has no way to know if a plugin supports this instruction. WaveLab passes the instruction, but there is no feedback from the plugin.
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Re: Renders taking 2 - 3x real-time length

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Following is what I found from testing in Wavelab a while back. The function to suspend VST3 is probably not very effective if you use 3rd party plugins with the Steinberg programs, because very few of the plugin makers support it. viewtopic.php?f=250&t=124077
============
"
In Wavelab, these VST3 plugins suspend processing when no signal present:
Steinberg
Stillwell
Eiosis

These don't:
Voxengo
Sonnox
Izotope
Waves
A.O.M.
DMG
Slate
Kazrog

I don't know if this covers all plugins made by these plugin makers, but that's what I found testing one plugin from each in Wavelab. So it's certainly not a comprehensive test.
"
----------------------

I think the suspend function is possibly more effective with 3rd party plugins in Logic and ProTools (not just VST3), not the Steinberg programs.
https://forum.juce.com/t/logic-disables ... gion/17570 . Thats just what I've heard though, don't know it from fact or experience.

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Re: Renders taking 2 - 3x real-time length

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OK, thanks for that. And it confirms what I thought: if most plugins don't support this VST3 feature it's not really very useful.

PG - can't Wavelab just suspend all plugins on any track that is not playing audio ? I mean why would the user even want plugins to be processing silence ? There's no need for it.

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Re: Renders taking 2 - 3x real-time length

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However if you get different results in Wavelab and Cubase, using exactly the same files, plugins, plugin settings, number of tracks, and interface and buffer settings, that would be something to question. That's what I was asking on the Cubase forum, but I don't think anyone over there tested it in Cubase.

The difference in Logic vs Wavelab I could definitely see, but not Wavelab vs Cubase.

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Re: Renders taking 2 - 3x real-time length

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can't Wavelab just suspend all plugins on any track that is not playing audio ?
It could. But this is a special case, which was considered rare so far: empty track with effects.
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Re: Renders taking 2 - 3x real-time length

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Capture.PNG
(89.82 KiB) Not downloaded yet
The track is not empty - it's simply not playing at that point because audio is playing on another track. I agree empty tracks with effects would be rare, but the way in which I use Audio Montages (see attached screenshot) is surely not rare ?

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Re: Renders taking 2 - 3x real-time length

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@richardjay If I understand correctly, you're using track affects as opposed to clip effects? With the way of working your screenshot shows, you might get better performance from WL changing to clip effects. With one clip on one track there's no added advantage to track fx anyway.
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Re: Renders taking 2 - 3x real-time length

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Arjan is completely right.
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Re: Renders taking 2 - 3x real-time length

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richardjay wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 9:42 pm
Capture.PNGThe track is not empty - it's simply not playing at that point because audio is playing on another track. I agree empty tracks with effects would be rare, but the way in which I use Audio Montages (see attached screenshot) is surely not rare ?
This is a pretty inefficient way to lay out a montage from a CPU and visual standpoint. 99% of motanges I make have just two tracks and the clips alternate between the two tracks incase songs need to overlap or be really close.

Any "per song" FX are applied as clip FX which is.a great feature of WaveLab, and any global FX like the final limiter and dither are applied on the montage output FX section or some people use the global master section which I dislike but the result is basically the same.

Having that many montage audio tracks and track FX is sure to use too much CPU any way you slice it.
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Re: Renders taking 2 - 3x real-time length

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Capture.PNG
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Thanks for the replies but there is a reason for working this way. Each track holds multiple versions of a composition (see new screenshot attached) which all need the same FX applied, so using Clip FX would not be a sensible way to work, from a workflow point of view.

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Re: Renders taking 2 - 3x real-time length

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richardjay wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 12:16 pm
Capture.PNGThanks for the replies but there is a reason for working this way. Each track holds multiple versions of a composition (see new screenshot attached) which all need the same FX applied, so using Clip FX would not be a sensible way to work, from a workflow point of view.
Ah, that is interesting. I guess one other potential option for now is that once you have dialed in your Clip FX chain for one version of a composition, you can copy the entire Clip FX plugin chain and paste it to the additional clips on the same track.

It's also a case for montage track playlists which I have been suggesting for WaveLab for a long time.
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Re: Renders taking 2 - 3x real-time length

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Justin P wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 12:25 pm
Ah, that is interesting. I guess one other potential option for now is that once you have dialed in your Clip FX chain for one version of a composition, you can copy the entire Clip FX plugin chain and paste it to the additional clips on the same track.
Thanks, yes I could do, but it become a real PITA to remember to copy any subsequent changes I do from the first Clip FX chain to the other chains on other versions. Track FX is a much simpler way of doing it, if only Wavelab wasn't processing all plugins all the time, even on silent tracks !

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Re: Renders taking 2 - 3x real-time length

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I agree with you Richard. I think plugin makers should support suspend in VST-3. But it seems like many of them might prefer to disable it when they have a choice (with Pro Tools plugins), or leave it disabled in VST-3. Maybe Logic is the only program that does it 100% effectively, because they force it on globally, and the plugin makers don't have a way to disable it in AU plugins? https://forum.juce.com/t/logic-disables ... gion/17570 That was my take on that thread anyway, if I understood it correctly.

From my understanding of what PG is saying, Wavelab already supports it 100%, without the option to globally turn off support, like in Cubase and Nuendo.

Maybe you could ask select plugin makers to enable support in VST-3.
If their reluctance is technical (like maybe they think their plugin possibly wouldn't kick in quickly enough in all cases), I would ask if they don't think problems like that would show up in their AU versions, if Logic basically forces compliance?

Steinberg is ok doing it with all their VST-3 plugins, apparently without problem?

Pro Tools is ok turning it on globally, for plugins that don't flag it off, also apparently without problem?

Maybe my assumptions about why the plugin makers do this are not correct. I don't really know how it all works. That's just my take given my limited knowledge. But it seems to me it would be to the user's benefit if they enabled VST-3 suspend support.
Last edited by bob99 on Mon May 07, 2018 5:20 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Renders taking 2 - 3x real-time length

Post by bob99 »

Does anyone know if you can deactivate plugins (not bypass), releasing them from processing, with automation in Cubase? Or with automation in any program?

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