Expression Maps

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Bollen
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Bollen » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:00 pm

Aha! So you would basically create an extra layout that contains just the instrument and its "key code" staff and you toggle to it when you need to make a change?

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by dankreider » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:06 pm

Bollen wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:00 pm
Aha! So you would basically create an extra layout that contains just the instrument and its "key code" staff and you toggle to it when you need to make a change?
Yes. For a simultaneous urtext and performing edition, I make a layout called “flute master” or whatever, and use it for comparison purposes only. Easy way for me to quickly compare the difference between the two.

So for more accurate playback, your “playback score” would have your “playback” instrument parts, and your “print score” has your visually correct parts.
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Bollen
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Bollen » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:12 pm

Hmmm... I'm not sure I'm following... So you have 3 staves then? 1 written part, 1 playback and one keyswitches?

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Derrek » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:25 pm

I often have to produce a piano/vocal score in addition to a conductor's score for the full instrumentation. So I have gotten into the habit in such projects of letting my first full score be a Working Score which contains everything, all the instruments, all the vocals, and the rehearsal piano part. It may also have multiple staves for, say, Flutes 1 & 2 combined and the individual flutes, at least until Dorico comes up with the combination capability. I never print the Working Score; so I do not need to format it beyond what Dorico does automatically. (This aspect of not formatting was even more important in Finale.)

From this Working Score I create two special layouts which I do format: one is a Conductor's Score, which leaves out the rehearsal piano; and the other is the Piano/Vocal Score, which has all the vocals and the rehearsal piano.

I may create other layouts for special input, and of course I'll eventually have layouts for each part.

Dorico's layout system is a really flexible tool, and I try to make every use of it I can imagine and need.
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Bollen
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Bollen » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:33 pm

Ok, I think I get it, but to stay on topic... You make a Working score and when you're finished simply create a conductor's score by clicking only on the instruments in the Working score that have music you want to print... Is that it?

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dankreider
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by dankreider » Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:04 pm

Yes. Or actually, I just make layouts at the beginning when I’m setting up the score, since I know what I’m going to need.

For a string Quartet, your layouts may look like this:

1. All scores
2. Playback score
3. Conductors score
4. Violin 1 master (contains two players: violin 1 print and violin 1 playback
5. Violin 2 master
6. Viola master
7. Cello master
8. Violin 1 (print)
9. Violin 2
10. Viola
11. Cello

It’s not necessary to make all these iterations, just showing you possible formats. As an added step, you could mute all the printed parts so they don’t playback; and propagate that property.

If this seems tedious, remember that creating a layout takes all of 5 seconds! :-)
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Bollen
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Bollen » Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:12 pm

Brilliant! Although technically you might not need the violin playback, just a violin keyswitch lane, since Dorico allows you to edit duration, positions and MIDI CC without altering the notation... This is definitely the way I'll work in the future if I ever get Dorico to work on my PC!

Thank you for your time!

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by saraesfehani2 » Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:16 am

thanks! ;)

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Bollen » Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:51 pm

Ah! Found a limitation with this approach and that is that you can't export stems... boooo! Keyswitches get exported separately so the instrument doesn't have any articulation changes... Also, some keyswitches play havoc with the layout, even with the appropriate clef, some are just too low or too high and there's no way to move the staves away from each other in galley view. Oh well, we'll just have to wait for a dedicated keyswitch lane/staff... Wink, wink devs....

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by antonriehl » Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:13 am

Daniel at Steinberg wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:19 am
The idea behind exclusion groups is that they allow you to specify which other playing techniques must be removed when another is added: at its simplest, "pizz." removes "arco" and vice versa, or "mute" removes "open" and vice versa, but it gets a lot more complicated when you consider that e.g. "col legno" needs to remove "pizz." which needs to remove "snap pizz." which needs to remove "left-hand pizz." which needs to remove "sul pont." which needs to remove...
Thanks Daniel,

This actually answers a lot of the other questions in my post as well. :)

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by benwiggy » Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:07 pm

I've tried to make an Expression map for "GIFF" (Garritan Instruments for Finale) Strings. But it doesn't seem to work very well.

Pizzicato and arco seem to work, but I can't get any of the others to switch on. Anyway, here it is. Note that most GIFF Strings have only 3 KSes: Normal, Pizz and Tremolo, MIDI Notes 0, 5 and 7 respectively. However Violin Solo KS 3 and Violins 2 KS have 11 switches, including Up and Down bows and Trills.

I've cobbled this together from some of the other expression maps made for GPO Strings, though helpfully GPO uses different keys from GIFF. I have checked that the keyswitch key values are correct.

If anyone can work out what's going wrong, either with my expression map, or with Playing Techniques, or elsewhere, that would be great.
Attachments
GIFFstrings.doricolib.zip
(1.81 KiB) Downloaded 10 times
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Rob Tuley
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Rob Tuley » Sun Oct 14, 2018 2:27 pm

Bollen wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:51 pm
Oh well, we'll just have to wait for a dedicated keyswitch lane/staff... Wink, wink devs....
You can define extra staves for any instrument in Dorico 2. Even better, if you put some notation (e.g. key switches) on an extra staff and then hide that staff, it has no effect on either vertical or horizontal spacing in page view (though any extra horizontal spacing still shows in galley view), but the hidden stuff still plays back.

You could use that for "written out" ornament playback, etc, as well as key switches. But you can also edit playing techniques and expression maps, so maybe you don't need to write your keyswitches as notes any more...

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Bollen » Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:03 pm

Rob Tuley wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 2:27 pm
Bollen wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:51 pm
Oh well, we'll just have to wait for a dedicated keyswitch lane/staff... Wink, wink devs....
You can define extra staves for any instrument in Dorico 2. Even better, if you put some notation (e.g. key switches) on an extra staff and then hide that staff, it has no effect on either vertical or horizontal spacing in page view (though any extra horizontal spacing still shows in galley view), but the hidden stuff still plays back.

You could use that for "written out" ornament playback, etc, as well as key switches. But you can also edit playing techniques and expression maps, so maybe you don't need to write your keyswitches as notes any more...
Thanks Rob, but I think you missed the first part of the conversation as to why Expression maps are not ideal, I quote:
Bollen wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 5:54 pm
The reason being notation will never represent a players' instinct, no matter how sophisticated the program is. For example,

1. a staccato keyswitch is inappropriate at very fast tempos or slow ones, a real player will play staccatissimo on fast tempo, despite the score having staccato markings and simply cut the note short on a slow tempo (what VSL calls portato), in other words it's completely tempo dependant.

2.- what we call sustain, most woodwinds will tongue, very delicately, on reasonable passages, but on very fast passages they will always play legato unless you specifically ask for double/triple tonguing.

3.- Legato in real life begins on the second note of a phrase, but it's notated from the first

4.- SFZ, fp, etc. all need tempo and dynamic context, a one-dimensional keyswitch simply doesn't cut it.
As for your suggestion on defining extra staves, where would these be? In Setup?

Cheers!

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Derrek » Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:35 pm

Yes, Setup.
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Rob Tuley » Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:02 pm

Bollen wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:03 pm
Thanks Rob, but I think you missed the first part of the conversation as to why Expression maps are not ideal, I quote:
Sorry, but I thought you were asking for an extra staff for keyswitch notes. If you want to control playback that way "manually," instead of using expression maps, you can - but of course you have then "hard wired" your dorico file to use one specific virtual instrument for playback, which might not be a good idea if you need to collaborate with someone else (or even if you discover a better playback library that uses different keyswitches!)

FWIW I don't think some of your objections to expression maps are quite correct - if you want ten different versions of "legato" using different playback patches etc in different circumstances, that's no problem - just define ten different playing techniques pointing to different expression maps, and make all ten of them say "legato" in the score if you like.
Bollen wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:03 pm
As for your suggestion on defining extra staves, where would these be? In Setup?
Select a note, right click, choose the Staves entry in the menu.

They aren't in Setup because you can add or remove staves multiple times at different places in the score if you want (for example keyboard parts may have sections that require 3 or 4 staves for the human-readable notation, quite apart from keyswitches).

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Bollen » Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:46 pm

Rob Tuley wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:02 pm

Sorry, but I thought you were asking for an extra staff for keyswitch notes. If you want to control playback that way "manually," instead of using expression maps, you can - but of course you have then "hard wired" your dorico file to use one specific virtual instrument for playback, which might not be a good idea if you need to collaborate with someone else (or even if you discover a better playback library that uses different keyswitches!)
Yes, that's kind of the idea in this conversation, a devoted/specialised keyswitch staff (or lane) that then can easily be removed with a click in case you want to either share the file or just want to move to a different library.
Rob Tuley wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:02 pm
FWIW I don't think some of your objections to expression maps are quite correct - if you want ten different versions of "legato" using different playback patches etc in different circumstances, that's no problem - just define ten different playing techniques pointing to different expression maps, and make all ten of them say "legato" in the score if you like.
Ah! That's very interesting, I hadn't thought of it... So a bit like you would do with percussion heads i.e. have lots of different samples being triggered by the same 'looking' notation element? That's certainly a possibility, but sounds incredibly time consuming to set up and then of course memorising what does what. The keyswitch solution is much more straight forward, since it's a) visual, b) easy to find the right articulation on the MIDI keyboard and c) the fastest method since it would be the same as notating music, so nothing new to learn.
Rob Tuley wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:02 pm
Select a note, right click, choose the Staves entry in the menu.

They aren't in Setup because you can add or remove staves multiple times at different places in the score if you want (for example keyboard parts may have sections that require 3 or 4 staves for the human-readable notation, quite apart from keyswitches).
Yes, this is what I already do, it's a bit of a visual clutter (especially if you have 20+ instruments plus percussion) and at the end I have to duplicate the flow and delete the extra staves to produce the readable score. A devoted keyswitch staff, at least what we've been discussing, could easily be hidden when not in view. So say for example you have a bar where you need to switch to a few different articulations:

- In the current system you right click > Staves > create extra stave below (ossia staves don't play for me, don't know if it's a bug), then change clef, then notate. And then of course you're left with extra spacing for the rest of the score. And if you have 20+ instruments that is a huge score and very difficult to navigate.

- The proposal of a keyswitch staff would simply be right click > open keyswitch lane (which give you specialised clefs that go very, very, low or very high), then input the keyswitch and hide in properties (or a little cross in the corner). By default this lane would always play say -10 ticks from the rest of the score and you could always edit it by going to the Play window under the instrument "keyswicth lane". Easy peasy... :D

The idea is to make Dorico as powerful as a DAW for realistic playback. The workarounds are fine but, these were already possible in other programs. It would also be good to see pitch bend added to the CC control window... Strange omission.

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Derrek » Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:12 pm

Bollen wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:46 pm
Yes, this is what I already do, it's a bit of a visual clutter (especially if you have 20+ instruments plus percussion) and at the end I have to duplicate the flow and delete the extra staves to produce the readable score.
You do not have to duplicate the flow if you use separate staves for keycodes and take advantage of layouts.
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Bollen
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Bollen » Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:21 pm

Derrek wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:12 pm
Bollen wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:46 pm
Yes, this is what I already do, it's a bit of a visual clutter (especially if you have 20+ instruments plus percussion) and at the end I have to duplicate the flow and delete the extra staves to produce the readable score.
You do not have to duplicate the flow if you use separate staves for keycodes and take advantage of layouts.
Separate staves as in a second instrument?

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Rob Tuley » Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:54 pm

If you "remove" the extra stave, it disappears from the layout, and the music on it doesn't mess up the note spacing of anything else, but the music is still there in your project, and it still plays back.

So you can make your keyswitch staff invisible, once you have finished working on it.

You can "add" and "remove" a staff multiple times at different points along the flow, so you can show and hide the keyswitches at any level of granularity you want - not just per flow, or per project.

Bollen
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Bollen » Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:09 pm

Ah right! So you mean in the setup page, when I want hide the keyswitch staff, I click on the Flow and then on the right hand side I unclick the layout? So that would have to be a separate instrument controlling the same device right?

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by ptram » Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:59 pm

I'm doing my own Xmaps for the VSL libraries I have, starting from the Expression Maps supplied by VSL for Cubase. As explained in the course of this thread, I imported them, and am editing some articulations to my need/taste. Editing is quite easy.

There are still a few things I can't understand, and would like to see if you can help me.

- Some articulations (for example, Legato) are there twice, with different values (min and max, I would say). I can't understand if they are meant as separate instances for On Events and Off Events.

- What are the articulations starting with "pt." (like "pt.moltoVibrato") for? They appear usually as duplicate of other articulations.

- Can I add my own articulation names, for example "sempre più vibrato" or "sempre meno vibrato"?

- Is some mass-replacement of parameters doable, maybe with a text editor? For example, I'm thinking of replacing all occurrences of CC1 in the various actions with a different controller, and doing it one articulation at a time would be incredibly time-consuming.

I concur with the request of having folders in the list of maps. It will look cleaner.

Thank you!
Paolo

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by dbudde » Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:39 am

For an example of mass replacement of parameters see this:

viewtopic.php?t=113952#p623279
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ptram
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by ptram » Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:26 am

Thank you very much, Dbudde, for pointing to to this solution. That's very useful!

Paolo

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by ptram » Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:19 am

Again on my questions:

- Batch-editing is easy to do on the exported .doricolib XML file.

- I could add my own articulation names, by editing the exported .doricolib XML file. Dorico sometimes fixes it after import, as if it had some hidden names not shown when clicking on the articulation name.
[EDIT: Some names are supplied to the Expression Maps dialog by the Playing Techniques used in the current project; "pt." articulations could mean "playing techniques".]

- I can't still explain why so many articulations are in the list more than once, either with the same, or a different name. Is there a guide to understand the meaning of the different name structures? Can duplicated by removed to have a cleaner and more manageable list?

Thanks!

Paolo

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by ptram » Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:48 am

When in troubles, does Dorico automatically recalls the 'Natural' articulation, or just an internal default one? One can program 'Natural' in the expression map, and choose whichever sound that is needed.

'Natural' is a bit of a mistery, for me. If trying to create an universal map, pointing to fix cells in the various presets, which one should be natural? A modern flute and violin usually play vibrato. A modern clarinet and baroque violin play non vibrato. A modern trombone plays, at most, a light vibrato. How to deal with the defaults, in an universal map?

The UACC astutely calls them Generic and Alternative. But Dorico (with its Natural default articulation) and the VSL presets (with a fix sequence of vibrato and non vibrato cells) demand for a choice.

If the Natural articulation in Dorico, or the default articulation in Logic, has to call a default articulation, which one should it do? Go for the most common today (vibrato), and write (and hide) 'n.v.' where the alternative one is preferred?

I'm thinking to create a first, default cell in my universal preset map, where each instrument's preset has the most common articulation. Then, the usually sequence of articulations (vibrato, non vibrato, molto vibrato…) begins, starting from the second one.

Not elegant, but funcional. Is there a better, cleaner and more elegant way to deal with the different defaults?

One of the possible solutions is to place the 'Natural' articulation, in my presets, at the very end. A repository for a preferred sound. If Dorico always recalls 'Natural' when not knowing what to do, this may be the most elegant solution.

Paolo

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