Real time MIDI recording from a keyboard not in Dorico yet?

Discussions about our next-generation scoring application, Dorico.
Post Reply
FlowerPower
Junior Member
Posts: 192
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2015 5:07 pm
Contact:

Real time MIDI recording from a keyboard not in Dorico yet?

Post by FlowerPower » Thu Oct 13, 2016 8:32 am

I've had a look at this list:
http://www.steinberg.net/index.php?eID= ... 161010.pdf

...but can't see any mentioning of real time MIDI recording (with all that comes with it, like eg quantising), so I assume it's not in the 1.0 release. Is that correct?

These things are listed as coming in updates during the coming months:

Chord symbols
Repeat ending (1st, 2nd time or volta) lines
Fingerings
Jazz articulations
Rhythm slashes
More flexible unpitched percussion notation
Improvements to playback and support for third-party virtual instruments

However, MIDI recording isn't on that list either. Not that it is presented as a complete list (it clearly says " Some of the functionality that is planned to be added in these updates includes" - but I'm really curious about what the situation is for those of us who prefer to recording MIDI data from an external keyboard.

User avatar
PaulWalmsley
Steinberg Employee
Posts: 733
Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 9:24 pm
Location: Steinberg, London
Contact:

Re: Real time MIDI recording from a keyboard not in Dorico y

Post by PaulWalmsley » Thu Oct 13, 2016 9:26 am

That's correct. The initial release has support for step-time recording from MIDI, but not real-time.
Architect & Developer - Steinberg London

FlowerPower
Junior Member
Posts: 192
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2015 5:07 pm
Contact:

Re: Real time MIDI recording from a keyboard not in Dorico y

Post by FlowerPower » Thu Oct 13, 2016 9:39 am

Thanks. Has anyone said anything about when this will be implemented?

User avatar
Daniel at Steinberg
Moderator
Posts: 5655
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:35 am
Contact:

Re: Real time MIDI recording from a keyboard not in Dorico y

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Thu Oct 13, 2016 9:48 am

Paul (who replied to your message) is the man who will be implementing it! But no, we don't know exactly when it will be implemented. It will be as soon as we can, given the competing priorities of all of the things we need to work on.

FlowerPower
Junior Member
Posts: 192
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2015 5:07 pm
Contact:

Re: Real time MIDI recording from a keyboard not in Dorico y

Post by FlowerPower » Tue Oct 18, 2016 11:14 am

Daniel at Steinberg wrote:Paul (who replied to your message) is the man who will be implementing it! But no, we don't know exactly when it will be implemented. It will be as soon as we can, given the competing priorities of all of the things we need to work on.
Thanks for your reply. For me personally, inputting notes in the easiest possible way is the most essential part of a composing app, real time recording have a few pros compared with step time input (not that step time input doesn't have it's pros as well).... I use real time recording in 9 out of 10 situations, so I hope it won't take too long.

FlowerPower
Junior Member
Posts: 192
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2015 5:07 pm
Contact:

Re: Real time MIDI recording from a keyboard not in Dorico y

Post by FlowerPower » Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:50 pm

Has real time MIDI recording been implemented yet?

Derrek
Senior Member
Posts: 1034
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2016 6:23 pm
Contact:

Re: Real time MIDI recording from a keyboard not in Dorico y

Post by Derrek » Sun Dec 18, 2016 8:33 pm

Other than step-time use of a MIDI keyboard, no.
Dorico 1.1.10, Finale (v25.4), GPO, JABB3, GWI
Windows 10 (also Mac Sierra as alternate)
US English Keyboard

fratveno
Senior Member
Posts: 1020
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 1:53 pm
Location: Norway
Contact:

Re: Real time MIDI recording from a keyboard not in Dorico y

Post by fratveno » Sun Dec 18, 2016 9:00 pm

Real time midi transcription is a huge programming challenge, and I think it will take considerable time to beat the status quo. The best ever was MOTU's Freestyle sequencer (long ago Windows 98 time). Currently sonicscore's Overture is pretty good, while Notation Composer has some extremely nifty algorithms to watch out for...:)
Dorico 1.1 - Windows 7

FlowerPower
Junior Member
Posts: 192
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2015 5:07 pm
Contact:

Re: Real time MIDI recording from a keyboard not in Dorico y

Post by FlowerPower » Sun Dec 18, 2016 10:58 pm

fratveno wrote:Real time midi transcription is a huge programming challenge, and I think it will take considerable time to beat the status quo. The best ever was MOTU's Freestyle sequencer (long ago Windows 98 time). Currently sonicscore's Overture is pretty good, while Notation Composer has some extremely nifty algorithms to watch out for...:)
Thanks for the reply. I don't need transcription to happen instantly, I don't mind of D. would take a few seconds and analyse what I played before it displayed it. But real time recording is important. I had a program on Atari in the 80s which did that quite well, so can it really be *that* difficult to implement it in an as advanced app like Dorico, using today's hardware?

fratveno
Senior Member
Posts: 1020
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 1:53 pm
Location: Norway
Contact:

Re: Real time MIDI recording from a keyboard not in Dorico y

Post by fratveno » Mon Dec 19, 2016 9:04 pm

You're right about that. It's not a question of computing power, but rather about the cleverness of the analyzing engine. (Freestyle on my stone-age W98 Pentium outperforms anything currently available.) Of course, I'm not talking about the ability to transcribe a simple monophonic melody, which even Finale has been able to do for ages, but the ability to decode a pro keyboard player's performance into (at least) two voices per staff/hand, with reasonably correct voice leading and with a floating (context dependent) split point betweeh the hands :) Of course, it's doable, but it may not be the top priority of current software developers, and honestly, I'd much prefer the Dorico team to focus on other tasks for the time being...
Dorico 1.1 - Windows 7

FlowerPower
Junior Member
Posts: 192
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2015 5:07 pm
Contact:

Re: Real time MIDI recording from a keyboard not in Dorico y

Post by FlowerPower » Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:07 pm

fratveno wrote:You're right about that. It's not a question of computing power, but rather about the cleverness of the analyzing engine. (Freestyle on my stone-age W98 Pentium outperforms anything currently available.) Of course, I'm not talking about the ability to transcribe a simple monophonic melody, which even Finale has been able to do for ages, but the ability to decode a pro keyboard player's performance into (at least) two voices per staff/hand, with reasonably correct voice leading and with a floating (context dependent) split point between the hands :) Of course, it's doable, but it may not be the top priority of current software developers, and honestly, I'd much prefer the Dorico team to focus on other tasks for the time being...
Good point. However, I'd certainly prefer a simplified overview with non-perfect floating points. or no floating point at all (a la Logic), than no notation editor at all. It's simply 100 times easier to recognise pitches in a piano style kind of overview with two clefs than it is in a piano roll editor. Many of us start a composition with a pianistic approach, and of course, when the composition is starting to find it's structure (and later) an as perfect notation display as possible is of course essential. But I record some polyphonic ideas with a piano sound or a chamber/symphonic ensemble sound it would feel awkward to have to working with it in a piano roll editor. After all, notation is the "industry standard" alphabet for composers.

User avatar
PaulWalmsley
Steinberg Employee
Posts: 733
Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 9:24 pm
Location: Steinberg, London
Contact:

Re: Real time MIDI recording from a keyboard not in Dorico y

Post by PaulWalmsley » Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:15 pm

To do live MIDI recording is not difficult. To do it _well_ is quite another thing... We do have the foundations of MIDI import, but there are many limitations currently. There's lots more we want to add to it over time. Certainly voice detection is one of those aspects. We've got lots of ideas for other ways we can enhance this in the future.
Architect & Developer - Steinberg London

andgle
Member
Posts: 336
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 6:36 pm
Contact:

Re: Real time MIDI recording from a keyboard not in Dorico y

Post by andgle » Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:47 pm

I have an idea for midi recording that would be great to see in the future.

I often need a different tempo when I record than the tempo of the music. This makes me change the tempo back and forth a lot of times, and it often requires some testing before I find a good tempo for recording.

What about a tap-tempo function that also triggers recording? For instance: if you tap a key four times, it finds the tempo and starts recording. This would be a great way to count-in yourself, and it lets you find a suitable tempo for each passage without messing up the playback tempo.

Might be hard in some signatures, but I think it would be a convenient feature!
Anders

macOS Sierra

User avatar
PaulWalmsley
Steinberg Employee
Posts: 733
Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 9:24 pm
Location: Steinberg, London
Contact:

Re: Real time MIDI recording from a keyboard not in Dorico y

Post by PaulWalmsley » Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:06 am

Thanks Anders. We do have a few ideas that are in this sort of direction. It's certainly an area that we want to find some good workflow enhancements to in the future.
Architect & Developer - Steinberg London

FlowerPower
Junior Member
Posts: 192
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2015 5:07 pm
Contact:

Re: Real time MIDI recording from a keyboard not in Dorico y

Post by FlowerPower » Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:25 am

PaulWalmsley wrote:To do live MIDI recording is not difficult. To do it _well_ is quite another thing... We do have the foundations of MIDI import, but there are many limitations currently. There's lots more we want to add to it over time. Certainly voice detection is one of those aspects. We've got lots of ideas for other ways we can enhance this in the future.
Thanks for your reply. I subconsciously assumed that one could enter polyphonic material in step time already, because if that is possible, D would pretty much have to deal with the same kind of problems (different number of voices) during real time MIDI recording as it would have to deal with in real time MIDI recording. I wouldn't, or course, have to see notation in real time is it is recored, but I'd like to record it in real time.
It would probably be helpful to even have a sketch mode, where one could record MIDI in real time only as a interim snapshot of spontaneous ideas - with a special kind of piano roll/notation display (see below), where rests/voices wouldn't even have to be dealt with.

If rests and polyphony/voices/rests is the problem, maybe it could be possible to record MIDI in real time, but limited to one voice at a time?
Screen Shot 2016-12-21 at 00.13.36.png
(42.1 KiB) Not downloaded yet

FlowerPower
Junior Member
Posts: 192
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2015 5:07 pm
Contact:

Re: Real time MIDI recording from a keyboard not in Dorico y

Post by FlowerPower » Mon Jul 03, 2017 10:30 am

So... still relying on MIDI step input to enter notes in score in 1.1. Is there a way to play a piano chord on a MIDI chord (into a piano staff) and *not* have all the notes entered in either the bass or the treble clef? I think I must have been missing something essential.

fratveno
Senior Member
Posts: 1020
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 1:53 pm
Location: Norway
Contact:

Re: Real time MIDI recording from a keyboard not in Dorico y

Post by fratveno » Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:30 am

Midi input won't split, so each staff must be entered separately. ( Look in my signature for a good solution to realtime entry with floating splitpoint and good musicXml export.) :)
Dorico 1.1 - Windows 7

Doug Miner
New Member
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:42 pm
Contact:

Re: Real time MIDI recording from a keyboard not in Dorico yet?

Post by Doug Miner » Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:19 pm

I agree with those who put realtime midi input pretty high up on the priority list. I am not a proficient pianist, but still find it much faster and easier to enter music in real time vs. step time. I actually did not realize this was so far down the line when I purchased Dorico as it is such an important part of other high end notation applications. I would like to add my voice to the call for implementation of this feature ASAP, even if not perfect at first.

User avatar
MarkSealey
Member
Posts: 247
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2016 9:57 pm
Location: Valencia, California
Contact:

Re: Real time MIDI recording from a keyboard not in Dorico yet?

Post by MarkSealey » Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:09 am

I definitely second Doug here!
--
Mark Sealey
Dorico 1.1.10/Ivory II/VSL/(Sibelius 8.6) on 'Late 2014' Retina 5K iMac; 4 GHz i7; 32 GB RAM; High Sierra, 10.13.1

mjeva3
New Member
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2016 2:17 pm
Contact:

Re: Real time MIDI recording from a keyboard not in Dorico yet?

Post by mjeva3 » Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:47 am

For all that the developers have done wonderful things with Dorico in such a short time, the absence of realtime recording has prevented me from being able to use the program. Yet if Dorico could adopt the recording and expressive sequencing abilities of Nuendo and Cubase it would perhaps, and without much exaggeration, approach the most invaluable aid to composition since the advent of notation itself.

Realising there are many approaches to composition, I also know I am not alone in the way that I work, and Dorico simply does not accommodate it. Much of a work pattern is developed around the ways in which inspiration comes. When I get a melody or harmonic pattern flowing into my imagination I need to be able to quickly play and record it on the keyboard. A motive or phrase rarely comes alone, usually entire sections or often multiple sections, sometimes a whole piece, or movement will come phrase after phrase in real time. To not then capture the music in real time as it comes is almost always to loose most, if not all, of it. Once this meant days transcribing from tape recordings! But the essential thing was that a recording should be made. To have to divert any sort of concentration from creativity to the mechanical entering of note values destroys this process, utterly! And that is the crux of the matter: it upsets rather than aids the creative process. To then edit, or create variations, requires the same level of concentration which cannot be upset by focusing on anything other than the music being channeled through ones being into the expression of the fingers upon the instrument. Mostly, any attempt to write directly to notation results in unfinished ideas that then require massive work to realise in full, and often are abandoned due to being clumsy or just stilted. To write piecemeal, labouring over one phrase, or even motive, at a time, usually results in a disjointed and clunky composition.

The art of memory, so crucial to Bach and Beethoven let alone the troubadours, is all but unavailable to students suffering a present day education. I was schooled in no great exception to this travesty and as such Cubase and Nuendo have become my greatest allies in capturing what inspiration comes my way: A copy can easily be made for editing (retaining the original sketches to refer back to) and a short score very quickly developed from that. It is then something of a novelty, if not a pleasure, to orchestrate using all the expression available to virtual instruments in that environment, listening back in amazing realism while working; Wonderful! But the music still needs to be transcribed and the built in score editors fall somewhat short. I could use Dorico at this point; it may be that old habits die hard, but I find it more expedient to do it the old fashioned way.

It would be rather wonderful to record strait to notation rather than graphical representations in a sequencer, to easily edit actual notes rather than coloured bars on a grid, and the possibility that the notation could contain editable information regarding dynamics, accent and so forth. Dorico must be of tremendous use to an engraver, its layout is very clear, controllable, and even beautiful. However, I thus far cannot make use of it in composition, only finding it frustratingly incapable of its incredible potential.

My respects to all,
and many thanks for enduring my complaint!

Matthew

althemusicwizard
Junior Member
Posts: 88
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:34 am
Contact:

Re: Real time MIDI recording from a keyboard not in Dorico yet?

Post by althemusicwizard » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:19 am

Hey Matthew,

What a brilliant post.
Just an insight as to how I use technology these days. I often find that inspiration can sometimes come when I'm at an instrument and sometimes not. In order to keep in the zone, if I'm playing an acoustic instrument (guitar, piano,sax or singing ) I will just record what I'm playing on a handheld recorder (Roland R-1). If I'm playing a midi keyboard I will record midi into either Propellerhead's Reason or the keyboard's in-built sequencer if it has one. Both these methods only involve checking you've got signal /data going into the recorder without getting bogged down in any sort of 'left brain' traffic jam.
What I then do is archive the idea into folders within my main 'COMPOSITION' folder for listening back to at a later date.
I've done this type of thing for the last ten years and it works really well for me.
Whatever the idea is, it usually then ends up in Reason where I can sequence the idea into a production. During the eighties I worked in advertising writing jingles and as such never needed notation.....we just worked out parts and either recorded them to tape or sequenced them. It was only when I returned to education (doing an MA in composition at Salford Uni) that I had to submit scores and bought Sibelius 4. I've always thought the 'score-writing' bit is the chore bit of the work.....because the playback was never as good as writing within a sequencer package. If the Dorico team can crack this one (and it looks like 'from the ground-up' type of planning the software has emerged from may well be able to do so), then the future looks bright for Dorico and composers around the world.
I'm sure the team is well aware of what is needed to make this happen (tap-tempo, expression maps, locking to other programs, I'm thinking here of vocal recordings primarily) and probably tons more. After reading your post though, it did occur to me that instead of going back to square one when I 'transcribe' my Reason sequences, I should try midi exporting each part separately and seeing how they import into Dorico. I have found in the past when trying this in Sibelius, it was horrible. Maybe in Dorico it would be better.
I'm often amazed when I hear some of the demos at East / West (Antongiulio Frulio's work is amazing) and wonder if they're doing them purely from Logic or another sequencer or from a score-writing package. I have found with technology though, no one piece does everything. That's why I have a Fostex G24S 1" tape recorder sat inches away from my RME UFX interface and as I said an R-1 recorder for when the muse strikes.
If I ever have time in this lifetime, I do want to do what I think previous composers did when starting out and that is to copy some scores into Dorico...I've got Sondheim's 'Sweeney Todd' sat on my shelf (surely the greatest musical of all time?) and also 'Peter Grimes'. I think much would be gained by inputting them along with other classics.

FlowerPower
Junior Member
Posts: 192
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2015 5:07 pm
Contact:

Re: Real time MIDI recording from a keyboard not in Dorico yet?

Post by FlowerPower » Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:26 am

mjeva3 wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:47 am
For all that the developers have done wonderful things with Dorico in such a short time, the absence of realtime recording has prevented me from being able to use the program.
That's how I see it too - why bother with complex process when all that's needed is to press one button and enter your idea in real time, with velocities that make sense as an added bonus?

I know Steinberg has said that they will do it, but I find myself getting a little worried about how long time this will take. I was brining something similar up in an old thread (about using a mouse to move notes in time/pitch) - and when I quoted a statement saying "we will add the ability to move notes rhythmically with the mouse, and we will add the ability to change the pitch of notes with the mouse" and asked if there's anything new about this, the new response was "I'm sure it's something that we will add in due course". That thread is two and a half years old, so - who knows when 'due course' is?

Post Reply

Return to “Dorico”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: David Tee, piano_jochen and 9 guests