Piano with three staffs

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boye
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Piano with three staffs

Post by boye » Sat Oct 22, 2016 2:40 pm

How do I add a third staff (with cross-staff barlines) to a piano grand staff?
And similarly, how do I transform a single staff into a piano grand staff?

The first example is often needed in certain elaborate types of piano writing, whereas the other comes in handy when creating a full piano version based on a lead sheet or simple vocal line.

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Boye

Liamk
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Re: Piano with three staffs

Post by Liamk » Sat Oct 22, 2016 5:13 pm

I have the same question, and I would also like to know how to hide or remove the third staff at certain places in the score. I imported a piano score with MusicXML which has three staves by mistake, and I haven't figured out how to remove the extra one.

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Daniel at Steinberg
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Re: Piano with three staffs

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Sat Oct 22, 2016 9:40 pm

I'm afraid the short answer is that, for now, you can't: the plan is that we will have an event that will change the number of staves in an instrument from a given rhythmic position, so you would be able to specify a move from two staves to three, or indeed one staff to two. I'm not sure when this will be implemented: possibly not in the very first update, but we will add it as soon as we can.

boye
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Re: Piano with three staffs

Post by boye » Sat Oct 22, 2016 10:52 pm

Daniel at Steinberg wrote:I'm afraid the short answer is that, for now, you can't: the plan is that we will have an event that will change the number of staves in an instrument from a given rhythmic position, so you would be able to specify a move from two staves to three, or indeed one staff to two. I'm not sure when this will be implemented: possibly not in the very first update, but we will add it as soon as we can.
Thanks for clarifying this.

Best,
Boye

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Re: Piano with three staffs

Post by vbridet98 » Sat Dec 24, 2016 3:48 pm

Hi,

I would like to relaunch this question.
Do you know when Dorico will be able to support modifications of the number of staff, by instrument ? Maybe, the next update ?

Thanks for all and sorry for my english ...

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Re: Piano with three staffs

Post by Robert P » Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:42 pm

Hi Daniel,

As I am setting my first real-world Dorico score project these days, a contemporary piece for the piano, the question of staff flexibility appears to be crucial. Depending on the passage, my piece may show 1 to 4 staves.
Could you please give us an update of this feature?

Another question: is is possible to change the notehead size in a specific passage, to 75% for instance? (Think of Chopin’s study op.25 in Ab major for instance, where small and normal noteheads are mixed).

These are rather straighforward in product B.

Otherwise, Dorico appears to be very flexible in voicing, rhythm, beaming etc. :-) The fact the time signature is not essentially required is very useful for the piano repertoire where, very often, we deal with open rhythms (think of Charles Ives or Erik Satie, for instance...)

Many thanks,
Robert

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Re: Piano with three staffs

Post by fratveno » Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:33 pm

This is a frequent question, but it isn't yet possible officially. You may look at this thread, but I'm neither encouraging nor recommending it. Merely stating that it is possible.

Dorico uses oversized noteheads by default, so you may change noteheads to Default, which reduces the size. I'm not sure of the percentage in reduction though.
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Stephen Taylor
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Re: Piano with three staffs

Post by Stephen Taylor » Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:34 pm

Last week I imported a piano piece with three staves as an xml file - and voila! Three staves in Dorico!

So maybe you can try making a short piece with three staves in another program, and then importing as xml.
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Robert P
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Re: Piano with three staffs

Post by Robert P » Thu Mar 09, 2017 6:39 pm

Thank you all.
I'd rather not use workarounds for this staff problem, and this is why I was asking Daniel in the first place.
The feature of a system-based variable number of staves (2-4, sometimes 1-4) is very common in piano music, and this is why I think it should be built-in. I believe it can be seen in organ music, too, and potentially in other situations (pitched percussion?)

Robert

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Re: Piano with three staffs

Post by thicks » Thu Mar 09, 2017 7:49 pm

This would also be great for use with pitched keyboard percussion. Especially vibraphone since orchestral/band parts usually only use one line, but percussion ensemble/chamber music and especially solo vibraphone music use two staves. I thought it was odd this wasn't an option since the option for a 4 octave vibraphone was given.

Thanks!

TH

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Daniel at Steinberg
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Re: Piano with three staffs

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:57 am

It will of course be built-in in the future, but unfortunately we cannot work on everything at the same time. The team is very busy working on chord symbols, editing note spacing, pedal lines, and a few other things besides for the next update. I hope that we will be able to look into changing the number of staves in an instrument in the following update, but I can't promise it.

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Re: Piano with three staffs

Post by Robert P » Fri Mar 10, 2017 8:12 am

Thanks again, Daniel, and of course I understand that patience is the rule!
;)

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Stephen Taylor
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Re: Piano with three staffs

Post by Stephen Taylor » Fri Mar 10, 2017 2:34 pm

Here is a blank Dorico template for 3-staff piano, made from an imported xml file if this is useful.
3-staff-piano.dorico.zip
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Re: Piano with three staffs

Post by fratveno » Fri Mar 10, 2017 3:38 pm

Thanks for bringing this up, Stephen. Dorico seems to be very obidient with MuseScore exports :) Finale always gave me 3 flutes with a bracket when I attempted to import some piano scores...
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Re: Piano with three staffs

Post by Robert P » Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:37 pm

One more thing:
When piano music expends to 3 or 4 staves, sub-brackets are sometimes needed (but not often, depending on the engraving style), as these Ligeti and Liszt examples illustrate.

Robert
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Re: Piano with three staffs

Post by Romanos401 » Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:15 am

I wont belabor this point since Daniel has been so patient and already clarified things and I'm happy to be patient. I'm just going to put in a plug for Organ as well. It is not entirely uncommon for complicated (typically renaissance or romantic) organ scores to require 3 staves for hands and a 4th for pedals. (Think early strict fugal writing or complicated polyrhythmic / multi-manual music.) So, Daniel, please remember us organists whenever the team implements it for piano too! And, as always, thank you all for this wonderful program!

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Daniel at Steinberg
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Re: Piano with three staffs

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Mon Apr 10, 2017 12:02 pm

When we introduce proper control for this stuff, you'll be able to have a 12-staff organ if you really want to!

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Re: Piano with three staffs

Post by k_b » Mon Apr 10, 2017 12:37 pm

Daniel at Steinberg wrote:When we introduce proper control for this stuff, you'll be able to have a 12-staff organ if you really want to!
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;-)
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arco
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Re: Piano with three staffs

Post by arco » Sat Jul 01, 2017 10:51 pm

Thanks Stephen Taylor for the 3 staves. I presume you use flows (somehow) to control whether the 2 or 3 staves appear? Any ideas how do you set this up as I have not done too much using flows?
I presume it would remain like this opening the file in the future, when there is a way to do this embedded in, but using flows it should just remain as it is, because it should not need to know it is the same piece (not that it matters at this point).
Thanks.

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Re: Piano with three staffs

Post by paulcopeland » Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:36 am

Thank you Stephen for the piano score with three staves. Most useful.

Best wishes and keep up the great work.

Paul.

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Re: Piano with three staffs

Post by LeifG » Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:12 am

@arco
You don't need flows to change the number of visible staves. Hide empty staves in Layout Options will do it. Just remember to click the setting for hiding individual staves within an instrument.

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Re: Piano with three staffs

Post by LeifG » Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:15 am

...and besides, even violins sometimes use multiple staves (I've even seen 3). But supposedly, when it's implemented, it'll be possible even in extreme cases.

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