Overriding metric divisions

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CarloGesualdo
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Overriding metric divisions

Post by CarloGesualdo » Fri Oct 28, 2016 3:47 am

I want to use Renaissance metric indicators such as imperfect prolation - looks like alla breve while the 'measures' will change length. Is there a way of accessing the metric symbols without applying them as metric modifiers?

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Daniel at Steinberg
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Re: Overriding metric divisions

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Mon Oct 31, 2016 1:09 am

Not really at present, no, because even if you could write them in as text, you can't easily create any space for them to go in.

Runter vom Sofa
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Re: Overriding metric divisions

Post by Runter vom Sofa » Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:43 am

I'll bump here too. I know little about old music and its notation, but let me see if I can explain (possibly the same as CarloGesualdo):

I am transcribing a piece by Praetorius. At one point the meter changes to "alla breve" – the C with the vertical stroke – but the bars should actually be 4/2 of length. This was the way it was notated back then, I think?

Is there a way to make this archaic meter work in Dorico? Is hiding every other barline a workaround, or am I creating a lot of trouble for myself if I do?

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Re: Overriding metric divisions

Post by fkretlow » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:36 am

It's possible with a bit of cheating.
Create a cut common time signature with a pickup of four beats ('cutc,4' in the pop-over). In the next bar create a 4/2 time signature and hide it.
Florian

Runter vom Sofa
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Re: Overriding metric divisions

Post by Runter vom Sofa » Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:45 pm

fkretlow wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:36 am
It's possible with a bit of cheating.
Create a cut common time signature with a pickup of four beats ('cutc,4' in the pop-over). In the next bar create a 4/2 time signature and hide it.
Thanks so much, I'll try it!

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Daniel at Steinberg
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Re: Overriding metric divisions

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:44 pm

The next update will include the option to set the ‘Common/cut common’ property for any half note (minim) denominator time signature, so you can make e.g. 3/2 or 4/2 show up with the “cut c”/alla breve symbol.

PjotrB
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Re: Overriding metric divisions

Post by PjotrB » Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:24 pm

That's a very welcome new feature. Will it also work for the common C instead of the alla breve? Like in the first example (Monteverdi, Maria Vespers), where the time signature is C, but the bars are actually 4/2 (or 8/4)?

In the same piece I also encounter time signatures as shown in the second picture. It's a combination of C and 3/2, but the actual bars are 6/1. Thanks to fkretlow for the pickup trick! I typed "4/4 = 3/2,24" into the pop-over, then setting the separator to ' ' (i.e. nothing) and checking the Common/cut common checkbox. It gave me the required complex time signature of C 3/2 and a pickup of 6 whole notes (24/4). It's funny that the pickup can be any length, even longer than the meter itself.

[edit: apparently my pictures didn't make it, I hope the text is clear]

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Daniel at Steinberg
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Re: Overriding metric divisions

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:21 pm

No, I’m afraid not, Pjotr: a time signature with a half note denominator, e.g. 4/2, will only be able to show the cut C, rather than the C. I would be interested to see the picture you tried to attach – the forum ended up over quota for attachment size, but hopefully you should be able to attach your picture again now.

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Re: Overriding metric divisions

Post by PjotrB » Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:11 am

These were the examples I wanted to post earlier.

1. The meter C being 4/2 is very frequent in the Maria Vespers:
SonataSanctaM.png
(37.62 KiB) Not downloaded yet
Another example, from the original 1610 edition:
LaudatePueri.png
(124.31 KiB) Not downloaded yet
To be fair, many movements in the original don't have barlines at all, but modern editions add them for convenience. Still, the bars marked C are musically really in 4/2 meter anyway, definitely not 4/4.

(BTW, I'd like to point out another peculiar notation in the Laudate Pueri: where a dotted note extends past a barline, the dot is written in the next bar. I've also seen this with Brahms, occasionally).

2. Time signature with combination of C and 3/2, but actually 6/1:
C32_6whole.png
(43.79 KiB) Not downloaded yet

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Re: Overriding metric divisions

Post by Vaughan Schlepp » Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:25 pm

One thing I find really useful in Finale is being able to define a different time signature for display only. Often this has to do with beaming: common or cut time with different 8th beaming than the time signature would suggest, or extended passages in 6/8 which need to be beamed as 3/4. Sometimes it concerns what one often sees in early music: cut or common time which is actually 4/2, or as in example 2 above. Would that be a feasible feature for Dorico sometime in the future?
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