hide cautionary clefs, keys and time signature

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steveparker
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Re: hide cautionary clefs, keys and time signature

Post by steveparker » Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:25 pm

But then, Derek, flows are becoming less useful for organisation.
Surely organisation is the point of the flows? I shouldn't need to use them for ad hoc notational items.
Daniel, some are connected, some aren't. A cautionary that shouldn't be there is as bad as a missing one.

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Re: hide cautionary clefs, keys and time signature

Post by ghess1000 » Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:33 am

Daniel at Steinberg wrote:[
You shouldn't interpret my question "why would you want to do this?" as anything other than a genuine attempt to understand the requirement.
Fair enough. I hope I explained why I want to do it. Dorico looks to be a potentially great product, particularly when trying to do things the others can't. But please don't make the easy stuff, hard.

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Re: hide cautionary clefs, keys and time signature

Post by ghess1000 » Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:54 am

fratveno wrote:Yes, you should use 15 flows, but you don't have to create 15 frames, just allow new flows to start on the existing page. (Layout options>Page Setup>Flows... )
Thanks. It's a little difficult to wrap one's head around, but it worked pretty well.

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Re: hide cautionary clefs, keys and time signature

Post by cantilena » Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:13 pm

Just read this whole thread. Seems to me that part of the frustration with Dorico (and there is some) revolves around, first of all, identifying what the problem is, and then learning how to solve it. In many cases Dorico can already do what we need, but we don't know how to make it do it!

I think that's the case when getting used to any new product or service. Think of Dorico as the ultimate Swiss Army knife with several thousand attachments. Yes, that toothpick or blade or scissors is probably there somewhere, but finding it is a challenge.

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Re: hide cautionary clefs, keys and time signature

Post by chrisg0619 » Thu Jan 19, 2017 8:24 am

I agree that the use of flows to perform basic aesthetic functions diminishes the overall usefulness of the feature. It shouldn't really matter why or why not I want to hide or show something--I just do. I make a lot of worksheets, examples, and illustrations, and these things must be accomplished quickly in order for the work to go smoothly. There are already many things in Dorico that do help me with efficiency, but there are other things that are time-consuming. Now, with that said, I found an older thread mentioning that there's no general "show/hide" functionality, but is this something that is in the cards, at some point?

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Re: hide cautionary clefs, keys and time signature

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:53 pm

chrisg0619 wrote:Now, with that said, I found an older thread mentioning that there's no general "show/hide" functionality, but is this something that is in the cards, at some point?
Within reason, yes, though implementing hiding and showing requires special implementation for each type of item to be hidden, so it's not something that you should expect to simply appear en masse in the immediate future.

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Re: hide cautionary clefs, keys and time signature

Post by creativetones » Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:29 pm

Hello everyone, I have xml file created by my colleague on Sibelius 7.3 with about 40 solfeggio examples for our solfeggio book. Every example is 8 bar long. And we really dont need cautionary clefs and time signatures. On Sibelius I just use hide/show function for cautionary clef and hide for time signature. That way my editing time is really very short.
On Dorico I have to rewrite solfeggio examples one by one in to different flow? For me it doesnt sound like good solution. And I would really like to make our book on Dorico.

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Re: hide cautionary clefs, keys and time signature

Post by fkretlow » Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:19 pm

creativetones wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:29 pm
On Dorico I have to rewrite solfeggio examples one by one in to different flow? For me it doesnt sound like good solution. And I would really like to make our book on Dorico.
Well, as Dorico does not currently allow us to hide cautionary clefs etc., I guess that individual flows are exactly the way to go here. Of course it's a bit frustrating that this doesn't work with xml import. [But adding flows is really quick and easy and and you can cut and paste the examples one by one. Shouldn't take too long... hopefully.]
EDIT: I just remembered that there's a 'split flow' command somewhere, I think in write mode. (I'm not in front of Dorico now.) Take a look, you might not even need to cut and paste anything.
Florian

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Re: hide cautionary clefs, keys and time signature

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:26 am

Yes, you should be able to simply select the note that should be the start of a new flow and choose Write > Split Flow. You can assign a keyboard shortcut to this command if it's something you're going to need to do 39 times, in the Key Commands page of Preferences.

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Re: hide cautionary clefs, keys and time signature

Post by piano_jochen » Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:03 pm

I was just about to ask that same question on how to hide cautionary key signatures on a system break. The use of it is quite obvious in this situation, but since D.S. al Coda is not yet supported, I understand why Dorico prevents me from hiding anything that could lead to an engraving mistake/inconsistency. We are just spoiled by Sib*** and alike which let us do these mistakes – even though I wish I could tell Dorico right now that it's ok to have a sectional break within a single flow...
For now, I hope that these D.S. al Coda repeats will be fully supported, soon.
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Re: hide cautionary clefs, keys and time signature

Post by UMahnken » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:18 pm

Are there any news in Dorico 1.2 with hiding cautionary time signatures at the end of a system?

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Re: hide cautionary clefs, keys and time signature

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:29 pm

No, and it’s not something I anticipate us tackling any time soon. As explained before, you should use separate flows for this kind of situation.

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Re: hide cautionary clefs, keys and time signature

Post by marusza » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:19 am

Hi Daniel, I just bumped into a reason to have a hide option for cautionary time signatures. I'm making a lead sheet of a song in 4/4, but I need to use different subdivisions in different parts of the song, since I want Dorico to display dotted half notes in one part and sixteenth notes in one quarter-note-length groups in the other part (let me add here that forcing length is not doing the job since these notes are also tied with other notes in tuplets). I ended up having multiple 4/4 time signatures after each other with specified subdivisions [4]/4 and [1+1+1+1]/4 but for musicians it looks like I need to remind them all the time to play in 4/4.

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Re: hide cautionary clefs, keys and time signature

Post by andgle » Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:16 am

You can already hide time signatures. Select the time signature, open the properties panel, and you should find 'Hide time signature'.
Anders

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Re: hide cautionary clefs, keys and time signature

Post by J_Woodtli » Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:41 pm

as "chrisg0619" and others mentioned. There are people, how definitly do need the hiding of cautionary key and time signatures.
Working with lots of snippets of music (one up to four bars) for my worksheets and solfeggio papers, is perhaps not the way Dorico is meant for by the software-designers, but the need is here. Sometimes I work with 200 and more examples, so this would mean 200 flows. That's not manageable anymore and I wouldn't find my way around all those flows. So I could start a new piece every tenth flow and my paper is torn apart in different files.
Hopefully you – Daniel – see and understand at least the need for this wish!

Jürg

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Re: hide cautionary clefs, keys and time signature

Post by UMahnken » Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:48 pm

+1

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Re: hide cautionary clefs, keys and time signature

Post by steveparker » Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:10 pm

I still want the ability to hide without having to start a new flow. Flows are surely organisational, and are a sledgehammer to deal with these kind of things. Good workflow is 'select-hide'.

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Re: hide cautionary clefs, keys and time signature

Post by jonathanruss » Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:44 am

I have to agree with all this, Daniel. Conductors like to see time signatures after page turns, and splitting a flow just to do that without a vestigial cautionary one hanging on the end of the previous page creates a ton of extra work - changing barlines, messing with tokens and project info so that margin info looks OK, and more layout tweaks. It's highly inefficient, and on a tight deadline, untenable; I will now have to explain to my conductor why I wasn't able to add the time signatures he requested.

All that said, Dorico is saving me lots of time in general! But this one thing does need to be fixed. And yes, I know, composers are demanding.

-Jon
http://www.jonathanrussmusic.com

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Daniel at Steinberg
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Re: hide cautionary clefs, keys and time signature

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:32 am

This is a perfect illustration of why it’s important you explain the problem, and not what you think the solution should be: in another program it might well be that creating an otherwise redundant time signature and then hiding its cautionary would be the way you would tackle this issue, but if in fact the goal is to make sure that the conductor knows the prevailing time signature, then we can think about adding a layout option to restate the current time signature at the start of a new system, which I think would address the requirement more elegantly, don’t you agree?

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Re: hide cautionary clefs, keys and time signature

Post by jziemann » Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:22 pm

Hi Daniel,

Thanks for your willingness to interact with us on stuff like this.

I have to say I think that in general with writing music in software, SO MANY symbols appear that we don't want or need, and it's unnecessary for whatever our purposes are. Some people write jazz charts, some people write classical music, some people want to throw together a quick transcription or arrangement and they don't need it to be super clean.

In this case I'm just trying to write a test for a music class. It's dumb, and I know it's not exactly what the software was intended for, however I could easily envision writing a score and for whatever reason aesthetically or practically saying "hey this isn't necessary...how do I get rid of it?"

I did not tell a cautionary time signature to appear at the end of the page for a time signature change at the beginning of the next page, and I've now spent 30 minutes trying to get rid of it.

It doesn't matter what I'm doing or why, what matters is that every time something like this happens and it seems like there should be an easy solution (it's just a freakin' symbol, let us delete it!!!) and there isn't, that's one less reason for me to bother trying to use a clunky piece of software. I guess you already have my money, but honestly I think it's pretty important that Dorico lives up to its promises of intuitiveness and ease of use. Even just a toggle in the options menu to turn it on or off so it doesn't break other parts of the program (like how can choose how accidentals within the measure are displayed based on which convention you follow....it's beautiful!).

Why would we want to hide a rest (also struggling with why we can't have that one)? Because we didn't put it there! It's great that the program is doing a lot of the work for us, (i.e. adding cautionary symbols), but without being able to undo that or prevent it from happening in the options menu, we cannot actually customize our workflow to suit our needs. And if the program does not suit our needs, you bet we are going to move on to something else. For me it would be going back to quill and ink because I've already had it up to here with everything else :(

Thanks again.
Josh

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Re: hide cautionary clefs, keys and time signature

Post by pianoleo » Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:35 pm

Josh, why are you trying to hide a cautionary time signature? If it’s because it’s at the end of the previous movement/song/exercise then use a new Flow - it’s what they’re designed for.
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Daniel at Steinberg
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Re: hide cautionary clefs, keys and time signature

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:20 pm

Thanks for your feedback, Josh. I do of course sympathise with the frustration of not knowing how to do something that has a direct approach in another program. But we have designed Dorico carefully to try to avoid the need for most of these kinds of kludgy nips and tucks, and in this particular case, if you simply select the note at the start of the new page following the unwanted time signature and do Write > Split Flow, you should find that the cautionary time signature disappears, because now you have two flows, and you’re approaching this the way Dorico is designed to work. I’m certainly not saying that we will never add a feature to do this, but I have yet to see a legitimate use case where it is actually needed and not a case where the appropriate result would be better achieved another way.

As for hiding rests (except for on percussion kit/grid staves) you can use Edit > Remove Rests.

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Re: hide cautionary clefs, keys and time signature

Post by steveparker » Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:51 pm

Daniel, the use case is that flows are wonderfully useful for organisation and this is spoilt by using them for odd small notation issues.

One case I've had is this:

30 MT scenes = 30 flows (very useful!)

Sometimes music follows on and requires courtesies - as in a play off in a different key.

Sometimes there is ten minutes before the next cue and it is not elegant to see a cautionary at the end of the last one.

I have to chop up flows, but it feels odd. If it is valid to have some flows with cautionaries and some without, why is it not valid to just have some key changes with them and some without?

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Re: hide cautionary clefs, keys and time signature

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:41 pm

I would agree that Dorico needs to have proper support for “attacca” between successive flows, but that would of course involve the opposite situation, i.e. showing cautionaries, which Dorico never does.

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Re: hide cautionary clefs, keys and time signature

Post by k_b » Sun Apr 15, 2018 3:29 am

steveparker wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:51 pm
...
I have to chop up flows, but it feels odd. If it is valid to have some flows with cautionaries and some without, why is it not valid to just have some key changes with them and some without?
Steve, I agree on this. Composers/musicians use the software in an “environment of creativity”. It is a good idea if they can accomplish things as easy as possible and and enjoy not to feel hindered :-)

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