Braces!

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Vaughan Schlepp
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Braces!

Post by Vaughan Schlepp » Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:10 am

I'm trying to make an ensemble consisting of a wind quartet, piano and 5 singers. I used the wind quartet template and added the piano and 5 staves for the singers. Dorico placed the piano staves under the winds and the singers' staves under that, placing an accolade in front of the piano staves and square brackets before each of the instrumental and vocal groups. Fine. As soon as I moved the singers' staves to the top, Dorico bracketed everything but the piano together in one group. In setup mode I tried putting the winds and the singers in separate groups, but the bracket didn't change. Why does Dorico behave like this and why can't I change it?
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Re: Braces!

Post by al3xandr0s » Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:27 am

In Engraving mode choose Engraving options > Brackets and Baces > Ensemble Type: Orchestral

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Daniel at Steinberg
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Re: Braces!

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Tue Nov 01, 2016 10:08 am

Chamber ensembles use the "Small ensemble" bracketing style by default, where all instruments are bracketed together regardless of their family; as al3xandr0s correctly points out, to enable bracketing according to instrument family, you need to choose the "Orchestral" bracketing style.

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Re: Braces!

Post by MarcLarcher » Tue Nov 01, 2016 10:57 am

I post here because the subject is similar… I try to engrave a piece of music (from an opera) with vocal soloists (normally no braces at all), a choir (braces) and piano (braces). I found, thanks to al3xandrOs, the different engraving options, but I cannot find how I can have soloist singers without braces AND a choir with braces…
How about introducing an option when I choose the instrument : soloist. This instrument would not be "brace grouped" with other instruments of the same kind. Could be very useful for opera, concertos…
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Re: Braces!

Post by al3xandr0s » Tue Nov 01, 2016 3:58 pm

I think MarcLarcher is right. You should change the way Dorico groups soloists together with choir sections. See Elaine Gould's Behind Bars p. 463.

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Re: Braces!

Post by Vaughan Schlepp » Tue Nov 01, 2016 7:18 pm

al3xandr0s wrote:I think MarcLarcher is right. You should change the way Dorico groups soloists together with choir sections. See Elaine Gould's Behind Bars p. 463.
... or have the group braces editable. I don't understand what the point is of creating groups in Setup mode when the braces don't follow the groups.
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Re: Braces!

Post by DG » Tue Nov 01, 2016 7:21 pm

I think that the current behaviour of braces is not necessarily the final one, once the Dorico team gets round to looking at the issue.

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Re: Braces!

Post by LSalgueiro » Tue Nov 01, 2016 8:05 pm

Vaughan Schlepp wrote:
al3xandr0s wrote:I think MarcLarcher is right. You should change the way Dorico groups soloists together with choir sections. See Elaine Gould's Behind Bars p. 463.
... or have the group braces editable. I don't understand what the point is of creating groups in Setup mode when the braces don't follow the groups.
That will be implemented, perhaps in the first update, if I recall correctly.

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Re: Braces!

Post by wolframd » Thu Nov 24, 2016 1:47 pm

Braces and brackets just should be freely editable, there are many different modes of using them. In a concert band, you commonly separate the following groups with brackets (and barlines): flute-oboe-bassoon / all clarinets / all saxophones / brass (sometimes divided) / Percussion. For the same instruments one most often uses the thin, straight brackets, not the thick, angled ones. Here is the Concert Band template in Dorico not consistent with the practice of big american publishers like Alfred, Belwin or Hal Leonard. (A very big market!)

With the available presets in 1.0 it is not possible to change this (or am I wrong and only a dimwit?), hopefully it will be with 1.0.10! Yet with the lack of so many features it must be a nightmare for the dorico staff right now. Perhaps Steinberg just should have asked for a crowd funding with discounts for buyers when it was going to be released and would have hired more beta testers?! I am wondering about frustrated first buyers, I am one lucky guy I could buy an educational crossgrade. I would have been very upset if I had spended the huge amount for a new, full, commercial license...

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Re: Braces!

Post by MarcLarcher » Thu Nov 24, 2016 2:24 pm

Hi wolframd

I am not very upset, and yet I paid full price. Because I know that I pay for what is going to improve into being a remarkable tool to engrave music. A tool that will last, because it is well thought, bought on a very solid knowledge by people who care for quality.
I am not upset at all, actually, because, having followed Daniel's blog, I knew that to be part of the users from day 1 (and I also tried to be beta tester !) would imply having an unfinished tool. And that it would give me the opportunity to contribute to the development. And I like that.
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Re: Braces!

Post by wolframd » Thu Nov 24, 2016 5:46 pm

Hi Marc,
we should not open a different discussion here, that was my fault, sorry...

I try to enter the right topic, yet I think all is said over there ("What have you been thinking" or so, right?)

Wolfram

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Re: Braces!

Post by Vaughan Schlepp » Fri Nov 25, 2016 3:14 pm

I have an ensemble piece imported via XML into Dorico 1.0 and I have been unable to change the braces of the instrument groups. Dorico does it well by default except that the double bass staff is left out, perhaps because I called it Contrabasso and Dorico (even the 1.0.10 update) doesn't recognise it. I've tried changing the name as well as changing the new Engraving Options/Approach settings around and nothing helps. Does anyone have any suggestions?
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Re: Braces!

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Fri Nov 25, 2016 3:41 pm

You should be able to resolve this now using the new Change Instrument feature: select the existing contrabasso instrument in Setup mode, click the little chevron > next to the instrument's name, and choose double bass from the list. You can always go back and edit its name again afterwards.

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Re: Braces!

Post by Vaughan Schlepp » Fri Nov 25, 2016 3:49 pm

Thank you again, Daniel! I'd tried changing the instrument name but not the instrument itself. This new feature works very well and it solved the problem.
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Re: Braces!

Post by wolframd » Fri Nov 25, 2016 4:27 pm

To my former problem: I did a workaround with groups and in 1.0 nothing changed. After the update today, the brackets were all on the right places. I did not use first and second players, so I do not know yet about sub-brackets. Only drawback: The percussionists are Glockenspiel, Percussion I and Percussion II. They are in one group, but not bracketed together (5 lines, 1 line, 1 line).
How can I achieve this?
Tanks!

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Re: Braces!

Post by wolframd » Sat Nov 26, 2016 3:52 pm

No, I do not wish to send tanks to the London Dorico team, sorry for that typo!!!

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Daniel at Steinberg
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Re: Braces!

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Mon Nov 28, 2016 1:29 am

Pitched and unpitched percussion will currently be bracketed separately, and there's no way to influence that at the moment, I'm afraid. Would you generally want pitched and unpitched percussion bracketed together, unless the pitched percussion should be braced on its own (e.g. for harp or grand staff marimba)?

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Re: Braces!

Post by Mark Johnson » Mon Nov 28, 2016 6:02 am

That’s what I always do. (Sorry to interrupt.)

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Re: Braces!

Post by wolframd » Mon Nov 28, 2016 5:12 pm

Probably one should have both options, I know them both. In american concert band scores, they always bracket them together, and I know the separat brackets as well for orchestral scores.

Engraving is a hell (yet so fascinating!!!)

For my current personal daily work, I do not care so much, but thank you so much for asking! The question should certainly be answered by full time engravers.

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Re: Braces!

Post by Andre » Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:08 pm

Is there a way to adjust the thickness of a brace and the distance to the staff?
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Re: Braces!

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:03 pm

You can't currently adjust the thickness of the brace, except by changing the music font. You also cannot currently adjust the distance from the staff, but this will be possible in the next update.

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Re: Braces!

Post by thiagotiberio » Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:17 pm

Daniel at Steinberg wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2016 1:29 am
Pitched and unpitched percussion will currently be bracketed separately, and there's no way to influence that at the moment, I'm afraid. Would you generally want pitched and unpitched percussion bracketed together, unless the pitched percussion should be braced on its own (e.g. for harp or grand staff marimba)?
To me, that depends on what each instrumentalist is playing. I often compose with percussion "stations" in mind for each player. For example, one musician may play bass drum in one section, then switch to glock or vibes in another. Meanwhile, another percussion in another station would be switching between orch. bells, triangle, snare, and marimba. In this case, I would love to bracket each station separately in the score, so it is very clear as a conductor which musician is playing which instrument.

Hope that helps, Daniel!

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