Lyric verses

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Lyric verses

Postby musicus » Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:27 am

Having struggled for years with Finale's arcane lyrics mechanism, there is much to like about the way that Dorico handles them. However, there are two specific things I have yet to figure out:

    1. How do I enter verse 2 lyrics underneath verse 1 (and subsequent verses, etc)?

    2. How do I add verse numbers at the start of each verse? (I am accustomed to typing "1"+"."+[hard space], but this doesn't seem to work in Dorico.

I am greatly enjoying exploring Dorico right now, and look forward to adopting it as my go-to scoring application.
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Re: Lyric verses

Postby Daniel at Steinberg » Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:34 am

1. Simply hit the down arrow key: the number in the popover changes to show you that you're now inputting another line of lyrics. Alt+down arrow takes you to the translation line for the current line of lyrics (denoted as e.g. 1* for the translation line for the first line of lyrics); up arrow from line 1 takes you to the chorus line (denoted as "c" in the popover). Shift+up arrow takes you to a completely separate set of lyrics positioned above the staff, rather than below.

2. You can add verse numbers using the options on the Lyrics page of Engraving Options.
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Re: Lyric verses

Postby musicus » Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:57 am

Thank you, Daniel. These are very elegant implementations, and the Lyrics page of Engraving Options is tremendous.
Dorico's implementation of lyrics already knocks spots off its rivals!
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Re: Lyric verses

Postby Vaughan Schlepp » Fri Nov 04, 2016 3:54 am

As a Finale user who's getting used to Dorico and who very much believes in it's potential, in all fairness I just thought to mention:
1. in Finale you also enter verse 2 lyrics by pressing the down arrow, although there are other means of showing that you're entering another versie of lyrics;
2. Verse numbers can also be entered using the options in the Score Manager. If you're still using numbers + hard spaces, then you haven't been keeping up with Finale's updates.
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Re: Lyric verses

Postby fratveno » Fri Nov 04, 2016 12:02 pm

Regarding 2. the auto numbering is activated in the Lyrics menu>Auto-numbering sub-menu, not in the Score Manager :)
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Re: Lyric verses

Postby musicus » Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:56 pm

Vaughan Schlepp wrote:As a Finale user who's getting used to Dorico and who very much believes in it's potential, in all fairness I just thought to mention:
1. in Finale you also enter verse 2 lyrics by pressing the down arrow, although there are other means of showing that you're entering another versie of lyrics;
2. Verse numbers can also be entered using the options in the Score Manager. If you're still using numbers + hard spaces, then you haven't been keeping up with Finale's updates.

Haha! I have kept up with the updates, but I'm still doing these tasks the way I've always done them! I will now go and explore these "new" methods.
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Re: Lyric verses

Postby Vaughan Schlepp » Fri Nov 04, 2016 2:04 pm

fratveno wrote:Regarding 2. the auto numbering is activated in the Lyrics menu>Auto-numbering sub-menu, not in the Score Manager :)

You're right. Sorry!
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Re: Lyric verses

Postby tonywardarts » Fri Nov 04, 2016 2:14 pm

I love how this works thus far. A future feature request: give us the option to repeat verses numbers at the start of each system. Many of us in the liturgical composition field are in favor of this method, as it is a huge help to congregations in their singing.
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Re: Lyric verses

Postby David26 » Thu Nov 10, 2016 6:04 pm

Since my question is about verse numbers I will post it here as well.

I've added 5 verses to a melody. Yes I agree that this is elegantly accomplished. Then I added the verse numbers. However, the verse number 1 also appeared on the Refrain at the beginning of the piece bars away from the actual verses. How does one remove this?

There's another quirk . . . Not all 5 verses begin on the same beat and that messes up the position of the verse number. I can select the first verse number and move it to the proper place to line up with the other verse numbers by using alt/arrow in engrave mode, however none of the other verse numbers can be selected. Is this a bug?
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Re: Lyric verses

Postby tonywardarts » Thu Nov 10, 2016 6:44 pm

David26 wrote:The verse number 1 also appeared on the Refrain at the beginning of the piece bars away from the actual verses. How does one remove this?


I think you'd need to enter your refrain as a chorus lyric to avoid this... Select the text you want, then right-click, select "Lyrics/Line/Chorus." If you don't want them italicized, change it in Engrave/Font Styles/Chorus lyrics font.

NB: there needs to be a faster/easier way to use chorus/translation lyrics.
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Re: Lyric verses

Postby David26 » Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:00 pm

tonywardarts wrote:
David26 wrote:The verse number 1 also appeared on the Refrain at the beginning of the piece bars away from the actual verses. How does one remove this?


I think you'd need to enter your refrain as a chorus lyric to avoid this... Select the text you want, then right-click, select "Lyrics/Line/Chorus." If you don't want them italicized, change it in Engrave/Font Styles/Chorus lyrics font.

NB: there needs to be a faster/easier way to use chorus/translation lyrics.



Well that was interesting . . . . I did as you suggested however even though I selected just the words of the refrain, and changed it to Chorus, it also changed verse one text to chorus and put it in the middle of the verses. It changes everything in the piece on that line, not just the text you select.
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Re: Lyric verses

Postby tonywardarts » Thu Nov 10, 2016 8:51 pm

David26 wrote:Well that was interesting . . . . I did as you suggested however even though I selected just the words of the refrain, and changed it to Chorus, it also changed verse one text to chorus and put it in the middle of the verses. It changes everything in the piece on that line, not just the text you select.


Well, smack my face and call me Silly. Sorry my advice caused that!
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Re: Lyric verses

Postby Derrek » Thu Nov 10, 2016 9:26 pm

To line up verse (stanza) numbers, try adding a hard space in place of an initial (missing) syllable.
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Re: Lyric verses

Postby Daniel at Steinberg » Fri Nov 11, 2016 2:29 am

A faster way to get to the chorus lyrics line: simply press up arrow from the first line. The little read-out in the popover that tells you the line number changes to a "c".
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Re: Lyric verses

Postby David26 » Fri Nov 11, 2016 3:42 am

Derrek wrote:To line up verse (stanza) numbers, try adding a hard space in place of an initial (missing) syllable.


Thank you Derek, on Mac the hard space should be Option/Space but that does not work. What did you use?

And Daniel, once text has already been typed into verse one, I guess there is no way to change a few words to a chorus, but leave the remaining text as verse one. Because the verse one, (after the chorus) gets changed to the chorus as well.
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Re: Lyric verses

Postby Daniel at Steinberg » Fri Nov 11, 2016 10:24 am

David26 wrote:And Daniel, once text has already been typed into verse one, I guess there is no way to change a few words to a chorus, but leave the remaining text as verse one.


Not so: you can change the verse number of any selected lyric(s) using the Properties panel.
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Re: Lyric verses

Postby MarcLarcher » Fri Nov 11, 2016 10:44 am

To David26, I noted that on another thread : the hard space is achieved with ctrl-alt-Space in Dorico, and I agree that alt-space would be better !
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Re: Lyric verses

Postby Mark Johnson » Fri Nov 11, 2016 3:16 pm

Yes, Option-Space has been the keystroke for non-breaking space for a third of a century on Mac, and it should not be overridden by an application.
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Re: Lyric verses

Postby David26 » Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:46 pm

Daniel at Steinberg wrote:
David26 wrote:And Daniel, once text has already been typed into verse one, I guess there is no way to change a few words to a chorus, but leave the remaining text as verse one.


Not so: you can change the verse number of any selected lyric(s) using the Properties panel.


Hi Daniel,

Yes I know that and that's great. However, I don't think you are understanding my perdicament. Originally I created plain lyrics for the first 18 bars. The next 8 bars was composed of 5 verses on top of each other. In engrave options under lyrics, verse numbers, I chose "show verse numbers". They were numbered 1-5. Great!

Then I went to change the first 18 bars (plain lyrics) to a chorus. I selected the text from the first 18 bars and made them the chorus from the properties panel. However, doing that also changed verse one to the chorus, even though verse one text was not selected. That's what I meant in my quote above. Making lyrics a chorus after the fact, changes verse one to a chorus as well, I assume because they are on the same line. Perhaps this should not happen.

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Re: Lyric verses

Postby Daniel at Steinberg » Sat Nov 12, 2016 1:11 am

You should be able to move the lyrics you want to become a chorus into a new line, e.g. line 6, and then make *that* line into a chorus, which shouldn't affect the others.
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Re: Lyric verses

Postby Cor anglais 16 » Thu Dec 08, 2016 6:37 pm

Is there any way to remove the period from verse numbers? Verse numbers read more cleanly on the page when they are just a number, without the period following. Perhaps there's a work-around possible via non-breaking spaces, but obviously a semantic solution would be preferable.

Also—I am under the impression that the terms "verse" and "stanza" do not mean the same thing, and that in, say, a hymn or carol, what we colloquially call "verses" are actually "stanzas" (perhaps an enterprising English and Literature professor could enlighten us?). If this is the case, might it be more precise for Dorico to use the term "stanza numbers" instead of "verse numbers"? (Of course, this would cause further issues with usability…)
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Re: Lyric verses

Postby Daniel at Steinberg » Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:05 am

I will make a note of your suggestion to show verse numbers without a full stop/period following them.
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Re: Lyric verses

Postby Kent Steinbrenner » Thu Feb 02, 2017 7:13 am

Yes, thanks for noting that for a possible future update, Daniel. Those of us setting hymns or other liturgical music are used to there being no periods/full stops after the verse numbers (most hymnals adhere to that style). I finally had to export a PDF file and go into Adobe Illustrator and remove the period/full stop after the verse numbers, to get it to be consistent with our house style. When there’s a will, there’s a way. ;-)
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Re: Lyric verses

Postby Daniel at Steinberg » Thu Feb 02, 2017 11:23 am

The 1.0.30 update will include an option to remove the dots after verse numbers, so that's one thing less to worry about, at least.
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Re: Lyric verses

Postby tonywardarts » Fri Feb 03, 2017 4:48 am

Thanks, Daniel. It'd still be great to have the option to repeat verse numbers per system.
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