PLEASE give us a detailed Manual

Discussions about our next-generation scoring application, Dorico.
Puma0382
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Re: PLEASE give us a detailed Manual

Post by Puma0382 » Sat Nov 19, 2016 11:24 am

From Daniel's blog post, there's some documentation 'expansion', including more languages, targeted for the first update coming soon... (scroll down for detail)
http://blog.steinberg.net/2016/11/doric ... -november/
System 1:- Win10 64bit, Gigabyte H81M m/board, Intel i7 4790 3.6Ghz, 16Gb RAM, 2 x 1Tb HDD storage, NVIDIA GTX 750 Ti, Steinberg UR44; Cubase Pro v9.0.30, WaveLab Pro v9.1, Studio One v3.5.2, Addictive Drums 2, Komplete 10, StylusRMX

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Re: PLEASE give us a detailed Manual

Post by Mats Frendahl » Sat Nov 19, 2016 6:19 pm

Looking at the URL, https://www.steinberg.help/dorico/v1/en/, the "v1" would hint that it is for version 1. If this is for 1.x or there will be a "v1.0.10"-URL soon remains to be seen (in end of Nov?). In either case, finding what is new/corrected will be a small challenge. Not impossible, but a little work.

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Re: PLEASE give us a detailed Manual

Post by kswalls » Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:44 pm

The Finale "Visual Index" is extremely useful. Something like that would go a long way in helping with the Dorico learning curve. For those not familiar you can see it and interact with it at
https://usermanuals.finalemusic.com/Fin ... al%20index

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Alberto Maria
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Re: PLEASE give us a detailed Manual

Post by Alberto Maria » Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:42 am

I may be wrong, but here https://steinberg.help/dorico/v1/en/dorico_en.pdf no new version is available (and no version number). I just look at the number of pages (191)... ;)

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Re: PLEASE give us a detailed Manual

Post by david-p » Tue Jun 13, 2017 4:46 pm

There IS a pdf manual here: https://steinberg.help/dorico/v1/en/dorico_en.pdf

That said, as hinted above, Sibelius wrote the manual on writing manuals (mostly done by Daniel), and that is what we are asking for.

:)

David
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Alberto Maria
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Re: PLEASE give us a detailed Manual

Post by Alberto Maria » Wed Jun 14, 2017 4:18 pm

Yes David :) but that manual is unchanged since a lot of time... ;)

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Re: PLEASE give us a detailed Manual

Post by guitarlos » Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:28 pm

I can't wait to check the upcoming version with the chord symbols and all the fixes that has being done from the first Dorico's release and to buy it before the cross upgrade expires. I count on it, that the up coming update will have the proper pdf manual, dated, and version number, as any piece of software I ever bough in my life. I remember the great grand daddy of notation software, 1986 the first Notator from C Lab. One could read and learn how to use it. It was so exciting to read and read how to do what you need it to do.

I don't think I will buy the Dorico without an updated PDF user manual, the trial was so frustrating being a totally new design.

Would a pilot try to learn a new airplane without a proper instruction manual? How can you learn a sophisticated piece of software without the masters who designed it teaching it to you step by step? I don't want to have to read twenty pages of this forum to find what it should be so straight forward on a PDF manual as Sibelius had, as I know, from its inception (maybe I am wrong on this because I was a Finale user that started using Sibelius on it version 5).

I totally agree that a proper user manual is a must an it should come with this update. I really hope so, it is non sense not to have one. Please create a PDF user manual with step by step procedures.

I can't wait... best regards to every one on this forum and to the Developer Team, specially to Daniel!

Carlos

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Re: PLEASE give us a detailed Manual

Post by LSalgueiro » Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:48 pm

guitarlos wrote:Would a pilot try to learn a new airplane without a proper instruction manual? How can you learn a sophisticated piece of software without the masters who designed it teaching it to you step by step? I don't want to have to read twenty pages of this forum to find what it should be so straight forward on a PDF manual as Sibelius had, as I know, from its inception (maybe I am wrong on this because I was a Finale user that started using Sibelius on it version 5).
guitarlos wrote:a PDF manual as Sibelius had, as I know, from its inception (maybe I am wrong on this because I was a Finale user that started using Sibelius on it version 5).
guitarlos wrote:version 5).
You left yourself a pretty big hint there. By the time Sibelius 5 rolled around, the software was already 14 years old.

While I would agree that we need a manual just as great as the software — and it is known that the issue will be addressed soon —, I just don't understand your fixation to trash the work that has been done so far over such quibbles. The philosophy and most of the new mechanics were even explained ahead of time so that one that kept up with the development could almost intuitively know how to do everything. For those who didn't, you have a series of YouTube videos which walk you through most things.

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Re: PLEASE give us a detailed Manual

Post by MarcLarcher » Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:50 pm

Well, Carlos,
I do understand why a manual is so important. Yet there have been a series of short videos that really are well thought after, and help anyone to understand the most important concepts and steps of use of Dorico... I find it quite unfair to assume that users are left alone — or with this forum (which I find really great!)
[Edit] Sorry LS, we have been writing at the same time and I completely agree with you.
OS X 10.11.6, macbook pro retina Late 2013
Opera singer (lyric tenor), photographer, sound engineer, XeLaTeX user and a sometimes music engraver
French is my native language

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Daniel at Steinberg
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Re: PLEASE give us a detailed Manual

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:54 pm

As I have already said, the manual will not be significantly updated at the time of Dorico 1.1's release. The new features have been copiously documented by me in the version history document (which you might otherwise call "release notes"), with the descriptions of the new features running to more than 30 pages (and then something like 7 or 8 pages of quick summaries of bug fixes), so you won't be completely in the dark.

Our new documentation writer will be joining the team at the start of July, and we are looking forward to starting to make real progress on delivering documentation as quickly as possible after that, but she will need some time to familiarise herself with our toolchain and indeed with the intricacies of Dorico before she can start contributing to the documentation.

So I ask you for your continued patience. And we will also be issuing a series of videos specifically about the new features in Dorico 1.1 when the new version is released.

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Re: PLEASE give us a detailed Manual

Post by Derrek » Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:10 pm

guitarlos wrote:Would a pilot try to learn a new airplane without a proper instruction manual?
When flying was just starting out, being developed, no one had a manual. Some crashed; others were careful, persistent, and studious and became proficient.

Like just about everyone else, I would love to see a comprehensive, nicely organized manual. But even when one exists, I expect we will see messages here from those who refuse to read it and then complain that the software is insufficiently intuitive. (In fact, I think some of that has occurred already.)
Dorico 1.1.10, Finale (v25.4), GPO, JABB3, GWI
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Re: PLEASE give us a detailed Manual

Post by LSalgueiro » Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:27 pm

Derrek wrote:
guitarlos wrote:Would a pilot try to learn a new airplane without a proper instruction manual?
When flying was just starting out, being developed, no one had a manual. Some crashed; others were careful, persistent, and studious and became proficient.

Like just about everyone else, I would love to see a comprehensive, nicely organized manual. But even when one exists, I expect we will see messages here from those who refuse to read it and then complain that the software is insufficiently intuitive. (In fact, I think some of that has occurred already.)
Boy, I do not want a pilot checking the manual mid-flight, I think!

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Re: PLEASE give us a detailed Manual

Post by Rob Tuley » Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:55 pm

guitarlos wrote:Would a pilot try to learn a new airplane without a proper instruction manual?
Actually, they can and do just that, at least for relatively small planes. If you go back a bit in time, the people who delivered planes to the operational air bases in WWII just took "the next plane off the line" and got on with the job. Often, the only "user manual" was a scrap of paper with their destination, the minimum takeoff speed, and the plane's stalling speed.

Pilots have one advantage compared with modern software users though: every plane built in the last 70 or 80 years has had the same "6-pack" of basic flight instruments in the same layout, so there is nothing to re-learn about knowing what is going on while you are in the air- and the fundamental principles of "how to fly" haven't changed in 70 or 80 years either.

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Re: PLEASE give us a detailed Manual

Post by Rob Tuley » Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:59 pm

LSalgueiro wrote:Boy, I do not want a pilot checking the manual mid-flight, I think!
Don't ever fly, then. Pilots use written check-lists all the time - especially in emergency situations.

Of course they should have memorized the basic procedures for normal flying and handling emergencies, but those are mostly independent of the type of plane they are flying. In some countries (especially those with reliably good weather) a complete beginner can reach that minimum level of competence (and get a pilot's licence to prove it) in as little as one week of full-time training.

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Re: PLEASE give us a detailed Manual

Post by Derrek » Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:47 pm

Well nowadays one goes up with an instructor to learn the basics and must be certified (or signed out by an instructor) before flying on one's own--at least in the U.S. The manual is studied on the ground (usually far away from the plane) and written checklists are done on the ground or done as a shared task between multiple pilots.

But I think we have digressed fom discussing a manual for software. Suffice it to say the pilot analogy was not applicable.
Dorico 1.1.10, Finale (v25.4), GPO, JABB3, GWI
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Re: PLEASE give us a detailed Manual

Post by david-p » Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:26 am

Pilots have one advantage compared with modern software users though: every plane built in the last 70 or 80 years has had the same "6-pack" of basic flight instruments in the same layout, so there is nothing to re-learn about knowing what is going on while you are in the air- and the fundamental principles of "how to fly" haven't changed in 70 or 80 years either.
This is indeed one of the problems of software in the age in which we live. Sometimes on account of copyright issues, and at other times for no apparent reason whatsoever, it seems that each new software package is so differerent from its predecessors that we spend our life trying to determine which problems are due to finger trouble and which are genuine bugs.

I deal with five different bank websites, and I am not unique in this. Each has a different interface that has to be leaned the hard way...

There are often times when I become very weary on account of this modern syndrome. The PC has been responsible for a lot of unnecessary time wasting in modern life.

David
David Pickett, Vienna, Austria
Sibelius 7 user from way back when, and can still use a pen and m.s. paper.
Editor of orchestral and keyboard (early music) scores and occasional composer.
Organ, harpsichord, conductor, audio producer and engineer.
http://www.fugato.com/pickett

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Re: PLEASE give us a detailed Manual

Post by guitarlos » Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:33 pm

Daniel at Steinberg wrote:As I have already said, the manual will not be significantly updated at the time of Dorico 1.1's release. The new features have been copiously documented by me in the version history document (which you might otherwise call "release notes"), with the descriptions of the new features running to more than 30 pages (and then something like 7 or 8 pages of quick summaries of bug fixes), so you won't be completely in the dark.

Our new documentation writer will be joining the team at the start of July, and we are looking forward to starting to make real progress on delivering documentation as quickly as possible after that, but she will need some time to familiarise herself with our toolchain and indeed with the intricacies of Dorico before she can start contributing to the documentation.

So I ask you for your continued patience. And we will also be issuing a series of videos specifically about the new features in Dorico 1.1 when the new version is released.
Hello Daniel,

Thank you for clarifying about the documentation progress. I apologise to you and to the whole team for pushing the issue of the user manual. I should not have say that... I can't wait to go and get my copy of Dorico.

Best regards,
Carlos

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Re: PLEASE give us a detailed Manual

Post by guitarlos » Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:47 pm

Hello to "all super aircraft knowledgeable people"

All I would say to you about user manuals and aircraft is that I come from a family of commercial airlines pilots (two older brothers and a nephew). They are the ones who showed me big books when they where studying a new aircraft. So you guys did not address anything by making fun of me in a cheap manner.

Regarding all the put down you exerted on me regarding this post, none of you guys have say any thing relevant, any thing that makes sense. The only true thing to be stated is that I should not have say "... that I will not buy the software if it did not come with an updated manual". That was indeed wrong for me to say and harsh to the development team to whom a deeply apologise.

Peace and Love
Carlos

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Re: PLEASE give us a detailed Manual

Post by Rob Tuley » Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:03 am

Guitarlos, I certainly didn't intend to "make fun" of anybody.

But as you probably realize, commercial airline pilots are a fairly small minority of all pilots. I'm very well aware of the "big books" you refer to - in fact I've helped to write some of changes to the international airworthiness regulations over the last 20 or 30 years.

I've also had some very interesting conversations with an airworthiness inspector (now retired) who specialized in certifying restored vintage aircraft - often, when none of the original written documentation on the aircraft type could be found at all. His general approach was "First, you decide if the plane will stay in one piece for an hour or two. Then, you try to take off. If that is successful, you then teach yourself how to fly the plane. Once you think you know how to do that, you try to land without breaking anything important."

Commercial aviation isn't the only way to fly ;)

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Re: PLEASE give us a detailed Manual

Post by fratveno » Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:42 am

So, true or false: the operational difference between Dorico and Finale is greater than the operational difference between a Cessna 172 and a Boeng 747...? ;-)
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Re: PLEASE give us a detailed Manual

Post by David Tee » Wed Jun 21, 2017 2:20 pm

fratveno wrote:So, true or false: the operational difference between Dorico and Finale is greater than the operational difference between a Cessna 172 and a Boeng 747...? ;-)
Dunno, but I'm fully expecting that if I read the forthcoming manual through properly, I'll be able to land a light aircraft in an emergency.
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