Sends & reverb in Play-mode

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MatsHall
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Sends & reverb in Play-mode

Post by MatsHall »

Short question:
Anyone out there who can tell me how the sends and reverb fader works in the mixer?
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Daniel at Steinberg
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Re: Sends & reverb in Play-mode

Post by Daniel at Steinberg »

Could you ask a more detailed question that outlines what precisely you want to know?

I'm no audio expert (far from it) but I believe the general principle is that the first send slot goes to the global effects channel, which has the REVerence reverb instantiated by default. It's not clearly labeled (or indeed labeled at all) but basically the amount of signal sent from that slot determines the mix of inputs that goes into the effects channel. The fader in the effects channel in turn specifies how much of that combined signal then goes to the master output.

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Re: Sends & reverb in Play-mode

Post by MatsHall »

Ah, I'm sorry for a very unclear question! This is probably a stupid question but I'm a totally audio/mixer-newbie. :oops:

• Well, when opening the send on one channel nothing comes to the reverb channel. How does this work, what are the steps?

• In more general terms, how do I assign one send slot to a certain channel/effect?
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MarcLarcher
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Re: Sends & reverb in Play-mode

Post by MarcLarcher »

Dear MatsHall,

As a former sound engineer, actually I must say that what is really unclear is the mixer itself. I did not understand either how to send sound to the reverb, simply because there does not seem to be a routing option for the sends, so we do not choose what it feeds. It might be somewhere in the operating manual, I confess I did not even looked for that (simply because I do not need the mixer by now !)
I am confident that the mixer will evolve with the different updates, when all notations priorities will have been fulfilled :-)

[edit] The operations manual Table of Contents speaks for itself : Play mode is the only mode NOT evoked in the document.
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MatsHall
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Re: Sends & reverb in Play-mode

Post by MatsHall »

I've been looking around to find information about the routing but couldn't find it and, as you say MarcLarcher, Play mode isn't mentioned at all in the reference.

Well, well, I guess this will be fixed in due time. For now I hope Daniel and the team will hava a nice couple of days off. :D
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Re: Sends & reverb in Play-mode

Post by Ulf »

MatsHall wrote:• Well, when opening the send on one channel nothing comes to the reverb channel. How does this work, what are the steps?
• In more general terms, how do I assign one send slot to a certain channel/effect?
Well, as has been mentioned, the mixer is not at it's full functionality, yet. This will all come with future updates.
So currently you can't add FX channels and change the routing.

At the moment Send 1 is fixedly routed to the FX channel with the name Reverb. Even though this FX channel is called Reverb, you can replace the Reverb by a different effect. Click on Inserts and you'll see that the Reverb channel has by default the REVerence reverb as plug-in. You can change this to a different effect if you like or chain with another effect.

So please wait for more functionality in the mixer to come.
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Re: Sends & reverb in Play-mode

Post by MatsHall »

Oki, thank you Ulf!

Then there must be something I'm doing wrong. As you see on the pic, there are no signal coming to the reverb channel, what am I missing? :?:
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Re: Sends & reverb in Play-mode

Post by Ulf »

Could you send me your project file? Maybe as PM if you don't want to do it publicly.
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Re: Sends & reverb in Play-mode

Post by MatsHall »

Thanks Ulf!

There are no secrets going on in this project, I'm just fiddling around to learn the program so I can switch when all the features I need are implemented.
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Re: Sends & reverb in Play-mode

Post by Ulf »

Yes, true, in your project somehow the routing to the Reverb channel got lost. I need to further analyze it as to exactly what and where. More interestingly, what steps did you take to make it break? But I guess you can't tell anymore as you were just fiddling around.
So there must be somewhere a bug that when you do this or that, then the routing information gets lost. Will be difficult to track this down. But please report if it happens to you again.

In the meantime, it would be better if you start with a new project to play around. Or you choose Play > Apply Default Playback Template, that will also heal the routing.
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Re: Sends & reverb in Play-mode

Post by MatsHall »

Ah, I think I found the issue now.
Default Playback Template makes it work again, but only with HSOSE. When using Garritan JABB/GPO the Send-routing seems to get lost. (They both play back fine though)
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Re: Sends & reverb in Play-mode

Post by Ulf »

Ah, true, I've just exercised the same with Kontakt, and when I switch back to HALion the routing is lost.
I will file this as a bug here in our database. Thanks for finding.
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Re: Sends & reverb in Play-mode

Post by MatsHall »

...and thanks for your quick response! :)
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Re: Sends & reverb in Play-mode

Post by rexwine »

No matter what I try, I haven't been able to send the Play instruments through the Dorico reverb.

I set all the Play articulations up myself, as I don't have the Cubase product. Dorico reverb shows no output although the output channel shows the output and they play fine otherwise.

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Re: Sends & reverb in Play-mode

Post by rexwine »

Here is a diagnostic file/ Violin I is Play, Violin II is SE.

Play won't show any response on the reverb mixer channel output.
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Re: Sends & reverb in Play-mode

Post by Brian Roland »

I use ARIA on a regular basis and don't get any issues with using the single functioning Aux Send on the Dorico Mixer.

There is something that can be confusing at first.

Note that if you are using the multiple output version of the ARIA plugin, that Dorico throws 16 channels on the mixer. Loading fresh sounds in ARIA defaults to sending everything over channels 1 and 2. You must manually assign them to the outputs you desire.

Also be aware that if you use ARIA's own built in reverbs their output will always go to outputs 1 and 2. If you ever need to isolate the reverb output, then you can simply avoid putting any instruments on that channel and use it as a mixed reverb level directly on the Dorico mixer...

Image

From there you should be able to set up an Aux Send to the one pink Effect Slider on the Dorico Mixer.

Image
Last edited by Brian Roland on Tue Sep 24, 2019 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sends & reverb in Play-mode

Post by Ulf »

@Brian: Rexwine is using East West Play, not Aria Player.

@rexwine: You need to pull up the send levels in the mixer for the Play channels.
Open up the mixer and at the top of the window click on 'Sends', then compare to the HALion Sonic channels and do the same for your Play channels.
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Re: Sends & reverb in Play-mode

Post by Brian Roland »

Sorry, I should have quoted the user to which I was responding. Garritan libraries are mentioned. My tip might not be relevant to the situation, but I know I do forget sometimes, or accidentally assign slots to an unintended fader on the Dorico mixer. It's worth having in one's 'trouble checking' list when working with multi-output plugins (most of them these days, right?).
Ulf wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:42 am
@Brian: Rexwine is using East West Play, not Aria Player.
MatsHall wrote:
Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:09 am
Ah, I think I found the issue now.
Default Playback Template makes it work again, but only with HSOSE. When using Garritan JABB/GPO the Send-routing seems to get lost. (They both play back fine though)

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Re: Sends & reverb in Play-mode

Post by rexwine »

Ulf wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:42 am
@Brian: Rexwine is using East West Play, not Aria Player.

@rexwine: You need to pull up the send levels in the mixer for the Play channels.
Open up the mixer and at the top of the window click on 'Sends', then compare to the HALion Sonic channels and do the same for your Play channels.
I think I need a picture because I can't find send levels in Play. I've been looking at the Play manual and that isn't helping either.

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Re: Sends & reverb in Play-mode

Post by Ulf »

Not in Play, but in the Dorico mixer window. Have a look at Brian's second screenshot and where the arrows are pointing to.
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Re: Sends & reverb in Play-mode

Post by rexwine »

Ulf wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 3:47 pm
Not in Play, but in the Dorico mixer window. Have a look at Brian's second screenshot and where the arrows are pointing to.
Mine say -0.08 as well under the Play instruments. I can attach a screen shot if you like.

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Re: Sends & reverb in Play-mode

Post by Brian Roland »

rexwine,

In my experience, with ARIA, the AUX sends are NOT established in the Dorico Mixer automatically. If I want them, I need to click the Sends tab in Dorico's mixer and set them up myself. For now there is only one fader we can point the Aux send at. It's the pinkish one on the Mixer, which I believe has one of the Steinberg Reverb plugins set up by default.

Image
Image
Image
Image

I'll have to double check, but I think this is also the case for HALion instances that are started manually.

I.E. If Dorico sets things up automatically in HSSE based on the Player/Sections in the Setup tab....then the aux sends are automatically initiated for us.

I.E. If I launch my own instance of HSSE, Sonic, or HALion 6 to set up my own custom sounds....it'll throw up 16 faders (Or 64 with H6) on the Dorico Mixer. If I want fewer faders to show up, I can reduce the number in the endpoint settings of the play tab (gear wheels in the plugin list of the play tab). In this case I don't think Dorico automatically sets up the Aux Sends. I also have to manually assign instrument slots to the outputs/faders I want, as by default, everything gets routed to the 'main' outputs on channels 1&2.

Finally, in my experience, once I do set things up as I like them, once I save the score it tends to stick.

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Re: Sends & reverb in Play-mode

Post by rexwine »

Brian Roland wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:22 pm
rexwine,

In my experience, with ARIA, the AUX sends are NOT established in the Dorico Mixer automatically. If I want them, I need to click the Sends tab in Dorico's mixer and set them up myself. For now there is only one fader we can point the Aux send at. It's the pinkish one on the Mixer, which I believe has one of the Steinberg Reverb plugins set up by default.
Thanks. I will try some work around. Seems more of a pain than it should be.

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Re: Sends & reverb in Play-mode

Post by Brian Roland »

rexwine wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:08 pm
Brian Roland wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:22 pm
rexwine,

In my experience, with ARIA, the AUX sends are NOT established in the Dorico Mixer automatically. If I want them, I need to click the Sends tab in Dorico's mixer and set them up myself. For now there is only one fader we can point the Aux send at. It's the pinkish one on the Mixer, which I believe has one of the Steinberg Reverb plugins set up by default.
Thanks. I will try some work around. Seems more of a pain than it should be.
It is at first when dealing with plugins and sounds that aren't part of the default/native templates (HSSE and HSO) that ship with Dorico.

Before Dorico can do things automatically for you, it must be armed with the proper information. Otherwise, it has no idea what the plugin supports, and how you want it set up.

With Dorico 3, you can now make templates, and as far as I know, those store your Dorico Mixer effect and send settings as well. Eventually some of the library makers might include Dorico templates with their stuff. Users out here in the wild might share some as well.

For now, with plugins other than HALion SE (HSSE), it would seem to be a good idea to devote each individual instrument to his own plugin instance, though you can have templates that mix and match.

HSSE is a little different in that Dorico knows how to manage individual plugin slots. For other plugins it 'might' be able to manage individual slots, but then again, it might not. So, when working with third party plugins, at least for now, it seems logical to isolate each instrument to his own unique end point in a dedicated plugin instance.

I.E. Start a score with ONLY one stave...Do a 1st Violin tutti Secton in Setup, with any extra articulations in there for channel hopping if required, in an instance of his own. Assign an expression map. Set up the Dorico Mixer the way you like (number of faders, effects, etc.), save the end point, and make a template.

Repeat for second violins. Again for soloists, etc.....

It doesn't really have to mess up your workflow...as you can always build templates 'later' from your 'built on the fly' scores when it is more convenient to do so. I.E. Save a copy of your full score. Open it a second time in a new Project Window...delete all the staves but the instrument(s) you wish to include in a template, then go through the process to save the instrument's end point into a template.

Once you have made your templates, Dorico 3 can now automatically call them up exactly as you designed them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLCOhCXRjEg

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