Fingering?

Discussions about our next-generation scoring application, Dorico.
davidhicken
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Fingering?

Post by davidhicken » Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:15 pm

Sorry if this has already been addressed, but I can't find a post about it. Have you now added the ability to use fingering - specifically in piano scores? Once you have that, I'm fully onboard with Dorico.

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David

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Daniel at Steinberg
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Re: Fingering?

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:28 pm

No, as yet there is no proper feature for adding fingering, but it is planned for the relatively near future. In the meantime you can input fingering using Shift+X text, though you will have to position it manually for now.

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Re: Fingering?

Post by IgorBorodin » Thu Feb 09, 2017 2:36 am

Judging by the latest 'Making Notes' post, I assume that fingering is not included in the upcoming 1.0.30 update.
Regarding 'planned for the relatively near future', is there a hope that we'll see it implemented before summer?
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Igor Borodin

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Daniel at Steinberg
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Re: Fingering?

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:29 pm

There's always hope, Igor!

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Re: Fingering?

Post by mati » Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:09 am

There's no mentioning of fingering anymore for the next 'big' update.
Is it still planned?

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Daniel at Steinberg
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Re: Fingering?

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:06 am

It is still planned, but I can't make any promises at this stage.

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Re: Fingering?

Post by R Pearl » Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:57 pm

On this subject, is it possible to select a pitch, hit Shift-X, enter the letter/number, and then use some combination of keystrokes to advance the cursor to the next pitch? As of now, I have to invoke the shift-x for each pitch - I suspect that is all that is available to us, at the moment. While I second the request for fingering, I understand if it is not there. I just wanted to make sure I'm not missing an easier way to do this.

Just finished two scores - first comment I received was how good they looked. I would have liked the first comment to be about the content, but hey, at least Dorico is making me look good!

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Daniel at Steinberg
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Re: Fingering?

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:45 pm

No, it's not possible at the moment, but that's what the fingering popover will allow you to do, when we implement it.

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Re: Fingering?

Post by PjotrB » Sat Jul 15, 2017 5:23 pm

As a 'cellist, I'd like to mention that the thumb position should be considered part of the fingering. The thumb symbol (a zero digit with a little vertical stroke on the bottom) should be treated like any other fingering digit. I mention this because I found that in SMuFL the thumb symbol (U+E624, stringsThumbPosition) is located in the 'String Techniques' range (section 4.52), and not in the 'Fingerings' range (U+ED10-ED2F, section 4.115). I hope you are not overlooking it.
(Obviously, applying the thumb is definitely also a technique, but that is basically true for every finger...)

Open strings (ordinary zero) are part of the fingering too, but no doubt that is already accounted for, since it is in the SMuFL Fingering range.
BTW, In SMuFL, the fingerings 1-2-3-4-5 are described as 'thumb', 'index finger' etc. This is not true for string instruments, where 1 is the index finger, 2 is the middle finger etc., and 5 is not in use. (But I doubt it is worth a new SMuFL version to add that to the glyph descriptions :)

Harmonics can be indicated with a small circle (in Dorico they are), but many editions use the open-string 0 digit (i.e. the typographically digit-like glyph) for harmonics as well. It looks like, and behaves as a fingering, and in a way it is, because it's a way of applying a finger, touching the string lightly instead of pressing it. In general, for the player it's always clear whether a zero indicates an open string or a harmonic. In the rare cases where this is ambiguous you may add the string number.

Elaine Gould uses circle-based symbols both for harmonics and thumbs. Some editions use the circle as the indicator of open strings as well, but to me that looks wrong. It depends on the edition whether the thumb symbol is represented by a circle with a stroke (may be more modern, see Gould) or a zero with a stroke (may be more traditional). Because the thumb is a finger, I prefer the tailed zero. It makes the fingerings typographically similar and easier to read as such. Maybe it should be a stylistic preference?

Note that a thumb can also play harmonics, for which the fingering is a combination (vertically stacked) of the thumb symbol and the harmonic 0/circle.
I don't think there is a clear rule whether a harmonic 0 is on top or bottom if it's combined with a finger.

HTH. I'm very happy with Dorico, and thrilled to see how fast it is becoming very, very good.
Peter Bouma, Amsterdam

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Daniel at Steinberg
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Re: Fingering?

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:14 pm

Don't worry: we will definitely include the thumb position symbol in the fingering feature.

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Re: Fingering?

Post by UMahnken » Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:51 pm

As accordionist I want to add my two cents. The fingering technique for accordion is nearly identical to that for piano. But there is one exception: if a finger is playing in a help row than the fingering should be signed by an underline OR by an circle. Both methods are convenient. The underline technique was easy to reproduce in another notation software, the circle was not. In the attachement you see some fingerings with a circle (bars 109 and 111). Can I hope that Dorico will be able to do this?
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accordion_example.png
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Daniel at Steinberg
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Re: Fingering?

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:10 pm

I'll certainly see whether or not we can include an option to draw a fingering number in a circle, Uwe. No promises, but I'll try.

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Re: Fingering?

Post by Cor anglais 16 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:54 pm

While we're pestering Daniel with requests for the fingering feature, what about:

1. percussion sticking (l r l r)
2. organ pedaling (^, o, u, l, r, r/l, ^/o, etc.), which is more complicated as it requires signs written on both sides of the staff, and occasionally a big slash across the staff itself (as in switching from right foot to left foot on the same note), not to mention multiple-voice complications like one sees in the Langlais Hommage à Frescobaldi or the Sowerby Pageant...

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Re: Fingering?

Post by UMahnken » Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:11 pm

+1

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Daniel at Steinberg
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Re: Fingering?

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:26 pm

We do not consider percussion sticking to be a kind of fingering (it might be "hand-ing"...) and we do not plan to implement percussion sticking as part of our keyboard fingering feature. Ditto for organ pedalling (or "feet-ing"... but definitely not fingering), which for the time being you can create using the Shift+P popover.

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Re: Fingering?

Post by Puma0382 » Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:45 pm

Daniel at Steinberg wrote:
Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:26 pm
.. and we do not plan to implement percussion sticking as part of our keyboard fingering feature.
Right. Sticking is part of drumset notation - I'm guessing you'll have it included there Daniel, when you get to implementing this, yes..?
http://web.mit.edu/merolish/Public/drums.pdf (scroll to last page for example - all mostly adhering to Norman Weinberg's Guide To Standardized Drumset Notation).
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Daniel at Steinberg
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Re: Fingering?

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:58 pm

I hope we will be able to implement a dedicated tool for sticking indications when as part of the work we are doing on unpitched percussion notation, but I cannot 100% guarantee it (software development is hard, priorities change, unexpected situations arise, etc.).

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Re: Fingering?

Post by CelloG » Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:32 pm

Thank you for all you are doing for the world of music notation and composition! I'm looking forward to the fingering popover for the cello etudes I've been writing.

I wonder if you have considered the possibility of alternative fingerings in the fingering popover? If not, I'd encourage that for a point release. It would allow me to take repertoire for my students and write in the alternates so I can have a beautifully formatted edition all of my own for each piece, it would save a bunch of time in lessons writing them in by hand :)

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Daniel at Steinberg
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Re: Fingering?

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:41 pm

Can you tell me a little more about your requirements for alternative fingerings, so I can understand better exactly what you need?

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Re: Fingering?

Post by CelloG » Thu Aug 10, 2017 6:32 am

Hi,

Thanks for the reply.

A decent example I use regularly is the Yampolsky scale book: https://www.amazon.com/VIOLONCELLO-TECH ... +technique

The arpeggios in the preview show fingerings both above and below the line. I have also seen writing 2 lines of fingerings above the line, one in parentheses. This is used to suggest 2 equally viable fingerings. I might have one for students with large hands that has stretches, and one for students with smaller hands that has more shifting. Sometimes a fingering might go up the D string for expressive effect, but an alternative that uses the A string exists that is equally valid, and both should be available for the student to practice and decide. Sometimes I just can't decide if I like one fingering or another in a particularly tough passage, and I'll write in both.

Incidentally, I have been using text (shift-X) for fingerings until the popover is released (naturally) and encountered a bug. When I am putting in 2 text elements on the same note (2 fingerings, 1 for each note of a chord), I can position them exactly in engrave, but the print preview does not appear to "remember" the engraving changes. This is due to attempting to copy/paste the thumb font from bravura https://w3c.github.io/smufl/gitbook/tab ... iques.html U+E624 and make it large enough to match the other numbers. This requires a 33pt font, while the numbers are 11.5pt, so the hidden space is apparently gumming up the works. Is there a better place to report this bug?

Thanks,
Greg

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Re: Fingering?

Post by CelloG » Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:38 am

I realized that when I move to print, it was displaying a different layout than the one I was editing in. Probably worth investigating as it is a pretty easy way for a tired user to accidentally print the wrong layout.

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Re: Fingering?

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:07 am

Thanks for the link to the book, Greg. Our approach to fingerings is that each note can have a fingering associated with it. At the moment I believe each note can only have a single fingering associated with it (though of course that fingering can include a transition from one finger to another, for example) but I will check with the developer working on the feature whether we already have a plan to deal with this.

Regarding the adjustments you make in one layout not being propagated to other layouts, that is by design, so that you have full flexibility of positioning things in different layouts in different places. We hope that we will be able to add features to copy the properties such as offsets etc. you set in one layout to other layouts, but the way the program works is deliberate so that it remains as flexible as possible.

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Re: Fingering?

Post by CelloG » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:54 am

One last question about fingerings, but first I just want to say how much I like Dorico. I'm currently in the process of entering all the technique stuff I use, so that I can make customized technique books for each student. The transpose feature allowed me to enter all the scales and arpeggios in major/minor formatted beautifully in about 45 minutes. I have each scale/arpeggio in a separate flow, so I can mix/match them easily.

Anyways, I'm going to enter all my fingerings using the text popover out of necessity. I was wondering if there is a format I should use that might make it easy to convert them to fingerings? Or should I expect to manually convert them after the first release to implement fingerings? I don't think that will ultimately be too hard, I can select all the text elements and delete them, then use the fingering popover to enter the new ones, but you all are smart, so I thought I'd ask first.

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Re: Fingering?

Post by fkretlow » Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:27 am

Daniel at Steinberg wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:41 pm
Can you tell me a little more about your requirements for alternative fingerings, so I can understand better exactly what you need?
Here's an example of extensive piano fingering (including multiple alternate fingerings and original fingerings set in italics).
Chopin extensive fingering.png
(393.08 KiB) Not downloaded yet
It's an extreme case and beautifully solved! (I'm not asking for full support of this. The ability to italicize fingerings as well as other things might be useful for critical editions though.)
Florian

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Re: Fingering?

Post by Rob Tuley » Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:49 am

It certainly looks pretty, but I sometimes wonder why any pianist who is capable of playing the music needs to see that sort of fingering, let alone three different alternatives. They are all pretty close to "the obvious options" IMO.

Compare with the rare occasions when Beethoven actually wrote piano fingering on his own music - in every case I know if, it tells you do to something that isn't at all obvious, but there is a musical point to that particular fingering way that would be hard to express any other way in the score.

Debussy had the right idea - he refused to add any fingering to his piano etudes, and in his preface gives the reason - even if it was the "best" fingering for some particular pianist, the mere fact that it was printed dogmatically on the score would make the pianist look for an alternative that might be worse!

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