Organ / Keyboard Particularities

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Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Post by Robert Enns » Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:34 am

Technique to spare. But to what end? How many notes can I play at once seemed to be the guiding principle.
It seemed frenetic and the music suffered. What ever happened to less is more?
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Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Post by Rob Tuley » Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:35 am

I suppose Carpenter might calm down a bit one day and start using his technical skills for making music. But it hasn't happened yet IMO.

Still, if he gives a few kids the idea that "a pipe organ" is not something in a church that is only played (slowly and badly) by your grandmother, he might be sowing some seeds for the future.

I've never met an organist who as "100% sane and normal" - anybody sane and normal wouldn't choose the organ as their instrument!

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Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Post by Robert Enns » Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:25 pm

"I've never met..."
Hmmm. I'll have to do a spot of self reflection. I didn't think I was less than sane...but now that I think about it....
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Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Post by Rob Tuley » Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:31 pm

What's the difference between an organist and a terrorist?

Sometimes, you can have a successful negotiation with a terrorist.

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Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Post by Robert Enns » Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:38 pm

I think the key word here would be "sometimes".
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Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Post by Rob Tuley » Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:42 pm

Unlike the (possibly apocryphal but entirely believable) story of a cathedral organist who was almost sacked following a disagreement with the powers that be, but finally was retained - and marked the occasion the following Sunday by playing an improvisation on "Fixed in his everlasting seat, Great Dagon rules the world in state" from Handel's "Samson" as the closing voluntary.

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Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Post by Robert Enns » Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:17 pm

Clever and relatively safe since most wouldn't get it.
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Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Post by Romanos401 » Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:09 am

There's a famous story about Langlais (or Litaize; can't remember now). He was improvising the prelude and the priest decided he had had enough and started the collect and an annoyed Langlais threw on the chamades and played for a few more minutes just to remind the poor priest who was really in charge!
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Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Post by Robert Enns » Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:57 am

I'd probably be with the priest.
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Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Post by dwlarson » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:12 am

Idea for future: I really do think that organ and pedals staves deserved their own vertical positioning values, as a dedicated group. Most of the time the vertical positioning of the pedal staff to the manuals should remain constant. The LH/RH staves may need to widen or narrow, depending upon notes, but the pedal should remain pretty constant (unless there are extensive upper notes required). And this vertical positioning may well be different than other single (or grouped) staves on the page.

The manuals and pedals should always be treated as their own "group" and positioned on the page accordingly (without widening the space between the manuals and pedals). Put any extra space between systems, not between those staves. IMHO.
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Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Post by Romanos401 » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:59 am

dwlarson wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:12 am
The manuals and pedals should always be treated as their own "group" and positioned on the page accordingly (without widening the space between the manuals and pedals). Put any extra space between systems, not between those staves. IMHO.
I couldn't agree more. The justification settings get really odd since the pedal line does not get grouped with the manuals. (Or at least it didn't the last time I worked on an organ score, pre-recent maintenance update.)
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Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Post by Romanos401 » Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:00 am

And to take it one step further, I'd love it if it was possible to have separate values for preferred spacing between the manual staves and the pedal stave relative to the manuals. Often in organ music the pedal line is closer to the left-hand stave than the manual staves are to each other. Global values that could be set independently would be a lovely inclusion.
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Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Post by k_b » Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:08 am

I would love these options, too.
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Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Post by Thomas Eberth » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:21 pm

Publishers often have their own standard spacing house rules for manual and pedal staves.

For me it's a "must have" to be able to set the preferred spacing between these staves.

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Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Post by Cor anglais 16 » Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:30 pm

fratveno wrote:
Sat May 27, 2017 8:21 am
1) Launch HW and in General Settings/Audio outputs make sure the divisions on the left all have their output device set to 'Hauptwerk VST Link' and their dedicated channel. (it may be something with AU... on Mac - there's a pdf describing this in the HW docs) [this step is not important if your HW setup uses a dedicated soundcard, i.e. different from Dorico]

2) open General Settings/MIDI ports and make sure 'Hauptwerk VST Link' is selected in the column Sequencer Midi In.

3) Load the organ you want to use and open Organ Settings/Keyboards... and make sure each manual on the left are set to a unique Midi Channel - Pedal: "Direct input from your...." / MIDI IN port: "any" / MIDI channel: 1 - continue with same settings for 1st, 2nd, 3rd etc. manuals, giving them Midi channels 2,3,4...

4) Make sure the HW VST Link is whitelisted and work in Dorico.

5) Start Dorico and configure your organ player. Say for an organ of 2 manuals and pedal. Since we cannot yet change Midi channels on staves you have to give the Organist 3 instruments, and adjust their naming. You can use a Bassoon for the pedals and piano or 2-staff organ for each manual. In order to have correct staff labels along the way in Page view, it's probably better to add this organ as 3 players...

6) Go to PLAY mode and under VST instruments on the right, click on Halion Sonic SE and replace it with 'HauptwerkVSTLink-64bit' (or the Mac equivalent). Open the organ on the left and verify/change the Midi channels so that they correspond to the setup in HW (Pedal channel 1, 1st manual channel 2... etc.)

7) Go to Galley view and enter the score... :)
I followed these steps in 1.2 correctly (I think) with an existing score and I only get sound from about written-bottom-of-treble-clef-F and down, and it's transposed down an octave to boot. Is there anything I can do to correct this? For what it's worth, I also get the same sort of octave transposition problem with Sonatina Choir (another whitelisted VST 2 plugin), though at least Sonatina Choir seems to play all the notes...

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Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Post by dwlarson » Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:25 pm

That sounds like the MIDI channel is set to channel 1, which is the default channel in HW for the pedals. They only sound from F (or G) above the bass clef staff. See if you can change the MIDI channel being sent (or change HW receiving channel for each manual to Ch 1). If you want to play the swell and great separately, you have to create a second organ instrument and assign it the corresponding MIDI channel for HW (same for the pedals). That worked in Sibelius.
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Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Post by Cor anglais 16 » Wed May 02, 2018 6:26 pm

Thanks for the advice. I changed all the manual and pedal channels in HW to 1 in Organ Settings/Keyboards, but to no avail. But for some reason setting the organ channel in Play mode to 2 took care of it (even though HW is set to channel 1 for everything). Very strange, but it looks like I'm operational for the time being.

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Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Post by torstenanders » Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:51 am

fratveno wrote:
Sat May 27, 2017 8:21 am
Since we cannot yet change Midi channels on staves you have to give the Organist 3 instruments, and adjust their naming.
Is it possible in the new Dorico 2 to allocate different MIDI channels to the different staves of an organ?

Thanks!

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Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:59 am

Not as yet, I'm afraid, Torsten.

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Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Post by torstenanders » Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:25 pm

Thanks for that clarification.

Best,
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Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Post by torstenanders » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:41 am

fratveno wrote:
Sat May 27, 2017 8:21 am
Since we cannot yet change Midi channels on staves you have to give the Organist 3 instruments, and adjust their naming.
I followed these instructions and succeeded in getting independent MIDI channels for the three staffs of the organ. I had to use three players instead of one player with multiple instruments (otherwise Dorico hides staffs that are pausing), and got external MIDI output working without a MIDI feedback loop by following the instructions to edit
PaulWalmsley wrote:
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the preferences.xml file
Outstanding questions:
  • How can get the brace for the manual staves (currently two flutes, happy to change that)? I managed to disable the default brackets in the engraving options, but the organist will likely find it confusing if the brace is missing around the manual staves, in particular if there are more instruments involved.
  • Is there a way to not only change the names of staves, but also their position? I want to have the label for the organ staff between the staff lines of the manuals, not directly before the staff.
Thanks a lot!

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Torsten

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Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:43 am

Unfortunately you can't do either of these things, Torsten. You would have to fake up the braces and staff labels using text items.

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Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Post by torstenanders » Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:36 pm

> You would have to fake up the braces and staff labels using text items.

Well, that is not elegant, but at least some way to do it. Thanks for pointing it out.

Another workaround might be to have on the one hand these staves for playback, and additionally having a proper organ staff for proper notation without any playback. I could then copy between those staves to keep them consistent, and for notation purposes hide the mere playback staves (e.g., by creating a custom layout in the setup and then removing the mere playback staves for that layout), which is then used for printing.

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Torsten

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Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Post by Romanos401 » Sun Nov 04, 2018 3:55 pm

So here's a new one I'd like to know about: is it possible to put a dashed barline in the middle of a measure on just one instrument? I'm reviving a old mass by Sigismund Neukomm for an upcoming TLM and I would like to have a dashed barline in a few measures for just the organ part to indicate where to switch manuals or change registrations. So far, I cannot figure out how to get these barlines to only display for the keyboard, even by alt+clicking on the keyboard stave. I do not want to disturb the notation of the vocal parts as this does not affect them the same way. Any ideas? The only alternative I can think of is just to use a bracket (which would technically be a correct way to do it, but this dashed barline seems a lot easier if I can get it to work).
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Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Post by Derrek » Sun Nov 04, 2018 6:16 pm

I see what you mean about using the ALT+SHIFT method; you cannot get the two staves joined with the dashed line. I guess we'll have to pray for appropriately sized brackets to help with organ manual changes.

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