Organ / Keyboard Particularities

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Romanos401
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Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Post by Romanos401 » Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:32 am

Well, your method is an interesting (and Perhaps viable) alternative. My main issue was that I didn’t want the dashed lines to appear in the vocal staves. Even your example would be an improvement until comprehensive brackets and general-use lines are implemented.
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Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Post by Romanos401 » Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:48 pm

Time to revive an old thread:
I have a question about cross-staff beaming. I'm trying to recreate Saint-Saen's Ave Maria à Deux Voix Égales but I'm running into an issue with cross-staff beaming: namely, it is forcing the beam to be in the middle. I can't for the life of me figure out how to get it to look like the original. If I drag the beams back up the stem directions are wrong. I can't help but think Dorico can do this how I want it but I'm just forgetting the command or clicking on the wrong thing.
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Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Post by LSalgueiro » Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:54 pm

Can't you just Force Stem Up?

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Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Post by Romanos401 » Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:48 pm

For heaven's sake!

See, I told you it was obvious! Talk about a brain fart. Sheesh.

Thank you. lol
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Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Post by Romanos401 » Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:54 pm

(Can you tell my kiddo woke us up in the middle of the night?)   :roll:
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Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Post by k_b » Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:50 am

like LSalgueiro said, force stem up or down:

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Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Post by Romanos401 » Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:28 pm

Hello All,
I was scouring the Gould to see if there was a specific guideline about repeat symbols in 3-stave organ music but there isn't. This is more a general notation question rather than an issue with Dorico.

It has been a long time since I've seen a repeat in 3part organ music (I play a lot of choral music which is often condensed down to 2 staves) and I'm wondering if there is a consensus on whether or not the pedal should have its own repeat marker or if the repeat bar should attach to all 3 staves. Gould mentions that barlines follow bracketing (of course) but this seems like it might be an exception to the rule. When the organ is by itself, it doesn't look so bad:
Screen Shot 2019-06-17 at 8.54.16 AM.png
organ solo
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but when combined with a vocal stave, it almost has the effect of looking like there are 3 instruments, not just voice and organ:
Screen Shot 2019-06-17 at 8.54.29 AM.png
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and this is what made me suddenly wonder about best practice. I'm inclined to think that all 3 staves should be attached, irrespective of the curly brace.

Your wisdom and guidance is much appreciated.
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Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Post by hbalmer » Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:10 pm

I just looked at Bärenreiter Bach edition. There the pedal line has it's own repeat marker. The new Breitkopf edition is different because the three lines are bracketed together.

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Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Post by Romanos401 » Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:17 pm

Thanks, hbalmer. I just went on a little expedition through a few of my scores and now I see why I was confused: it appears there are competing conventions.
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I have multiple editions where barlines are attached throughout (as are repeats) and some where the pedal is independent. My informal survey seems to indicate that typically pedal staves are not connected but I wonder if this has come about due to modern notation software. We all know there are certain habits that have taken hold strictly because of mainstream notation programs that encouraged the [incorrect] habits. I wonder if that is the case here, where early notation programs simply tacked on an extra stave to a piano part and thus the lines were never connected, whereas older hand-engravings would have connected them all. Just a theory anyway.

Perhaps both conventions could be allowed for in engraving options in the future. (I know it is possible to override this manually so it is not a big deal.)
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Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Post by Thomas Eberth » Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:13 pm

I engrave a lot of organ music and I never joined the manual and pedal systems for repeats. But I must admit, that I never thought about that. It's like Romanos said: I relied on the notation software.

Especially when there is a solo instrument staff above the organ staff, joined repeat barlines look better for me. Perhaps I'll join them next time and see what the publisher says.

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Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Post by Michael Aves » Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:42 pm

Romanos401
I've just looked at one or two study scores of pieces with orchestra, and they all show only two staves. Not much help. But I've also looked at "Music Notation" by Gardner Reed (Gollancz, 1974) which acknowledges both conventions for dealing with barlines, but says that putting the barline joining the pedal stave with the manual staves is "not recommended". As the book predates most - all? -notation programmes, you can't blame them for the confusion!

I don't actually recall often seeing barlines joining all three staves, except in 19th century editions of organ music by Reubke (German publisher) and Vierne (French publisher) - so maybe that is/was a Continental practice (but not universally used even there).
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Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Post by Romanos401 » Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:46 pm

Michael, you could be on to something. The photo I attached a little while ago was a French romantic piece by a French publisher. That said, I'm going to agree with Thomas that at least in cases where there are other instruments involved, it might be better to join them. As I look at my Franck example it really does look like a voice, with a piano in the middle, and then perhaps a cello part beneath; not a conventional setup, but the eye is easily tricked. I'm glad to learn about the Reed (I have that laying around somewhere...) and that there at least is the acknowledgment of both conventions. This might be my "get out of jail free card" for making the discretionary decision to combine them in this case and not in others.
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Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Post by Romanos401 » Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:53 pm

(I'll also add that the trick now will be if Dorico will allow, in future, for the BARLINES to be disconnected but the repeats to span all 3 staves. Currently it is all or nothing.)
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Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Post by Thomas Eberth » Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:57 pm

Romanos401 wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:53 pm
(I'll also add that the trick now will be if Dorico will allow, in future, for the BARLINES to be disconnected but the repeats to span all 3 staves. Currently it is all or nothing.)
In most cases you have only few repeat barlines. So you could have "disconnected" als default and join the repeat barlines in properties panel by hand.

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Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Post by Thomas Eberth » Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:51 pm

I just watched some "older" editions of organ music that were published by Butz Musikverlag, Bonn, Germany . As far as I know, the music engraving was done on an Atari computer (I asume with Notator SL): All barlines (not only the repeat barlines) are joined.

In the year 1999 someone else and I started engraving for Butz Musikverlag with Finale and Sibelius. From that time on only the two upper staves have joined (repeat and normal) barlines. Another evidence that joining/disconnecting depends on the software.

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Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:10 pm

I very much doubt we will add the capability to make repeat barlines join different staves than normal barlines. Special barlines – whether double, repeat, or final – should use the same barline joins as normal, unadorned barlines.

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Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Post by steveparker » Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:08 pm

This is fascinating, in that I'd never noticed before that I have music both ways! It obviously doesn't make much difference to my reading of it.

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Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Post by Romanos401 » Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:39 pm

Thomas Eberth wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:57 pm
Romanos401 wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:53 pm
(I'll also add that the trick now will be if Dorico will allow, in future, for the BARLINES to be disconnected but the repeats to span all 3 staves. Currently it is all or nothing.)
In most cases you have only few repeat barlines. So you could have "disconnected" als default and join the repeat barlines in properties panel by hand.

Thomas
Unfortunately not, Thomas, because it will then change all the barlines as well. As I said above, it's all or nothing. For organ solo it's fine the default way; the only thing that caught my eye was once I had two other staves with the organ and I realized the pedal part blended right in.
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Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Post by Romanos401 » Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:41 pm

steveparker wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:08 pm
This is fascinating, in that I'd never noticed before that I have music both ways! It obviously doesn't make much difference to my reading of it.
I know! It's the same for me. Clearly I've played both and never thought much of it. Then all of the sudden when I was forced to make an explicit decision about it I started wondering. There are so many aspects of music I'd never deeply pondered until I started engraving things myself. I also find loads of mistakes in old editions that I engrave too. It's almost comical. I love finding the same material, pages later, notated differently than before, or measures that don't have the correct number of beats... etc. You can also find times when the engraver made a mistake, and you know they knew, because they did something funny to mitigate the error without wanting to redo the whole plate. It really is fascinating.
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Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Post by Thomas Eberth » Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:34 pm

Romanos401 wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:39 pm
Thomas Eberth wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:57 pm
Romanos401 wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:53 pm
(I'll also add that the trick now will be if Dorico will allow, in future, for the BARLINES to be disconnected but the repeats to span all 3 staves. Currently it is all or nothing.)
In most cases you have only few repeat barlines. So you could have "disconnected" als default and join the repeat barlines in properties panel by hand.

Thomas
Unfortunately not, Thomas, because it will then change all the barlines as well. As I said above, it's all or nothing. For organ solo it's fine the default way; the only thing that caught my eye was once I had two other staves with the organ and I realized the pedal part blended right in.
Isn't this what you wanted to achieve? The checked option in properties panel "Taktstrich verbindet alle Systeme" must be something like "Barline joins all staves" in English.
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EDIT: Ah, I just realized my misunderstanding: This only works for organ solo but not, when there's a solo instrument above.

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Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Post by Romanos401 » Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:37 am

At least it’s a good idea for organ solo!
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Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Post by David Arditti » Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:25 pm

There need to be some different ways of displaying how the 3-part organ grand staff shows. The default is good for pure organ music, but if you put this in an ensemble score, you get one staff that has no label and is not bracketed to anything else, so there is no way for the reader to tell what it represents. It is possible to re-do the bracket so it covers all three staves, and also re-do the barline joins, but then you have the instrument name at an odd level, and there is no way to consistently centralise it on the 3-part grand staff.

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Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Post by Romanos401 » Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:12 pm

David, interestingly enough if you look at most modern organ music there is only a normal grand staff with an extra stave beneath, which, more often than not, does not have connected barlines to the grand staff (except at the very beginning of each stave). You can make the manual bracket change if desired already to put all three under the curly brace (which runs the risk of being confusing for those times when you need three staves for manuals).
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Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Post by Romanos401 » Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:17 pm

I think the bigger issue is the fact that the pedal stave is not calculated in the spacing algorithms as belonging to the manuals, so the auto justify settings really muck things up sometimes. I think there needs to be a special setting in the vertical settings pane of the layout options dialogue just for organ to choose the desired distance between manuals and between manuals and pedal (which is often narrower).
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Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Post by Romanos401 » Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:11 pm

I'm just going to drop this quote from another thread about organ pedaling here as well for anyone who might benefit.
Romanos401 wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:09 pm
6620 wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:31 am
Romanos401 wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:17 pm
[...]

As an aside, there are some old editions that use 'O' instead of 'U' for the heel. This would be nice addition. I saw it a long time ago (don't remember where) and adopted the practice myself since sloppily written U's turn into V's and then you have v vs ^ which can be harder to distinguish in the heat of the moment. At any rate, low priority to be sure lol.
+1 for O as heel. That's certainly how I learned it and use it.
I'm glad I'm not the only one. I did alter the playing techniques for one score, but it definitely took some fiddling to get it right. It really does make a difference having the O's though...
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