Techniqes and Expression Maps: Articulations Under Slurs

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Techniqes and Expression Maps: Articulations Under Slurs

Postby Brian Roland » Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:17 am

I've been making some expression maps for different orchestral libraries and I've hit a snag.

How can we trigger a +legato +staccato technique if the staccato note happens to be the last note living under a slur?

Imagine a piece where by default we want every staccato note living under slurs to always be bowed martele. For staccato notes who do not live under a slur, we want spiccato.

So, we make some techniques that look like this:
pt.staccato = spiccato bowing.
pt.staccato+pt.legato = martele bowing.
Image
legatoPlusStaccato.png
(110.28 KiB) Not downloaded yet


This works as expected as long as the staccato/martele not is not the last note under the slur. In this clip below, instead of getting Martele for the blue and red notes, I get Spiccato. Staccatos not living under slurs, like green note, works as expected (always play spiccato).
Image
clip1.png
(5.97 KiB) Not downloaded yet


In this next example all the Blue notes play back as martele. Red notes should be martele, but they come out as spiccato.

I do realize it is possible to tie the problem notes to the next note and then 'hide' (set alpha to 0) the slurs (the orange slurs in the second two bars). In the second two bars of this passage, it plays back all the +staccato +legato notes in martele as expected, BUT, I don't really want the legato 'attack' for the next note....tis a mess of sorts :(
Image
clip2.png
(13 KiB) Not downloaded yet


Really, the whole point of building this sort of logic is so we can quickly and easily interpret scores without having to individually tag every note in a piece or jump through too many work-around hoops.

I thought I might could take this approach below as a kind of work around that's pretty quick to implement, and then just hide the orange slur, but this doesn't work either. I still get spiccato instead if martele for those staccato D#'s living under the slurs.
Image

Ultimately, the goal is to have several sticky node techniques that'll make it easy to change how articulations get interpreted on the fly. I can already do this to some degree and it really helps save a LOT of time. In the future I'm sure that User techniques will make it easy to set up several 'interpretive slates' to toggle on the fly; however, I'm concerned that there doesn't seem to be an easy way to detect the last note of a slurred phrase through our expression map. Have I missed something?
Last edited by Brian Roland on Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Techniqes and Expression Maps: Articulations Under Slur

Postby PaulWalmsley » Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:13 pm

Currently there isn't any special state for the last note under a slur, but this is something we can look into in the future.
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Re: Techniqes and Expression Maps: Articulations Under Slur

Postby fratveno » Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:27 pm

That would be handy, yes... Dorico already knows on which note a slurs ends, as it knows where to put the next articulation change :) Maybe Off Events for legato is where we shall look next...?
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Re: Techniqes and Expression Maps: Articulations Under Slur

Postby Brian Roland » Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:23 am

fratveno wrote:That would be handy, yes... Dorico already knows on which note a slurs ends, as it knows where to put the next articulation change :) Maybe Off Events for legato is where we shall look next...?


Sibelius likes to tag these with a 'portato' node. While I disagree with calling the node 'portato' (it would make more sense for legato+tenuto), it's nice that it gets a dedicated node.

In the interest of more quickly getting some easy to use, yet advanced expression map sets out there for people who are more interested in 'composing' than fiddling with plugins and expression maps...

Until such time as we get the ability to add our own custom nodes that are 'easily importable' as a default startup slate for users, I'd much appreciate adding the following nodes to go with 'staccato'. These need to be 'sticky' nodes, that act in a similar way as arco/pizz, or con/senza sordino.

Run (This node would be helpful to lock and load a less vibrato laden arco sound that is suitable for really fast legato/scale type runs. We don't want the 'attack' up/down stroke sound of the bow biting into the string for these types of passages! The bow is already in motion at full speed, strings are already vibrating as finger simply slides to a new note, and even with a string change, the bow is already at full speed, so there's not as much of as sharp 'attack phase' to the transition. It really needs to be different from a typical legato attack as well...it should be at fuller amplitude from the very beginning...not 'crossfading and swelling' up to volume over time as most bog standard computer generated arco string sounds do these days...it's not hard to do better at this with almost any string library on the market...we just need the node.)
NoRun (Drops the Run node)

Stacc [Ex Group 1] (Sets a Stacc Node)
NoStacc (Simply drops the Stacc node)

LStacc [Ex Group 2]
NoLStacc

Spicc [Ex Group 1]
NoSpicc

LSpicc [Ex Group 2]
NoLSpicc

Saut [Ex Group 1]
NoSaut

LSaut [Ex Group 2]
NoLSaut

Mart [Ex Group 1]
NoMart

LMart [Ex Group 2]
NoLMart

Deta [Ex Group 1]
NoDeta

LDeta [Ex Group 2]
NoLDeta

Port [Ex Group 1]
NoLPort


Here is why these nodes (or something similar) would be very helpful to have in the near future.

With such tags, we could set a myriad of default interpretations at the beginning of a stave, where they'll 'stick' until we want to change them to something else. Our expression map would look something like this:

Staccato(default generic staccato...typically the regular arco sound but with half duration)
Staccato+Legato (default sound for staccato notes living under slurs, typically some flavor of martele or sautille)

Staccato+Stacc (If the Stacc node is set, this sound gets played for lone staccato notes)
Staccato+Legato+LStacc (If the LStacc node is set, this sound gets played for staccato notes living under slurs)

Spiccato (Default Spiccato sound, if there is no Spicc node)
Staccato+Spicc (If the Spicc node is set, this spiccato sound gets played for lone staccato notes)
Staccato+Legato+Spicc (If the Spicc node is set, this sound gets played for staccato+legato notes)

Martele (Default Stand alone Martele...)
Staccato+Mart
Staccato+Legato+LMart

Sautille
Staccato+Legato+Saut
Staccato+Legato+LSaut

Detache
Staccato+Deta
Staccato+Legato+LDeta

Portato
Tenuto+Port
Tenuto+Lport

run
staccato+run
staccato+legato+run


Why go to all this trouble in an expression map?
It makes it so one doesn't have to tag every single note in a piece for alternate bowing. It reduces how often we must send a "nat." technique to 'clean the slate' and rebuild the node-set on our in-score staves. At first, this doesn't seem like all that big of a deal, but when we start adding things like mutes, portamento settings, etc...then it becomes rather helpful to be able to simply drop individual nodes rather than doing nat. and starting from scratch rebuilding everything else.

Imagine this:
At the beginning of your stave you simply drop on the following techniques and either give them 'custom text' to show on the score, or simply hide them from view (Presently we'd just set the alpha channel to zero to hide it):
LSaut
Mart

Now all staccato notes in quaver are going to be played Sautille, while all the staccato notes that are NOT in quaver are going to be played Martele.

Next imagine that several bars into our piece, we decide we want staccato in quaver to change to Martele, and stand alone staccato to become Staccato until instructed otherwise. All we'd need to do is drop the following techniques into the score at the first note of this passage and hide them from view:
NoLSaut
LMart
NoMart
Stacc
Now we're good to go until we want another change many bars later.

From this point (unless we ALSO get some sort of exclusionary group that'll keep the percussive node lists seperate from the arco ones), to deal with things like percussive articulations, we've got a couple options.
1. Put a 'nat.' technique on the stave to clear all the nodes, and then put our pizz. col legno, or whatever.
or
2. Get Exclusionary Groups for individual nodes of a combi-technique implemented, where only one node of a given group can be active at a time. Such nodes 'replace one another' instead of being tacked onto the node-list.
or
3. Keep adding redundancies (use same, or even variations of pizzicato sounds) to our list of technique combos in our expression map like so:
Staccato+Pizzicato
Staccato+Legato+Pizzicato
Staccato+Stacc+Pizzicato
Staccato+LStacc+Pizzicato
Staccato+Legato+Stacc+Pizzicato
Staccato+Legato+LStacc+Pizzicato
Staccato+Spicc+Pizzicato
Staccato+LSpicc+Pizzicato
Staccato+Legato+Spicc+Pizzicato
Staccato+Legato+LSpicc+Pizzicato
etc...

Ideally, it'd be nice if we we could eventually make it so certain individual nodes can supersede others (exclusionary group). I.E. Entering Mart would automatically clear Stacc, Spicc, Mart, or Saut, etc. (anything in the same exclusionary group) and simply replace it. That would prevent users needing to manually clear out conflicting nodes, or needing all the redundant expression map entries (They could just enter a single technique and not have to manually clear anything); however, even if we don't get the exclusionary groups anytime soon, just having access to the extra nodes sooner, rather than later, would be a big help in making a giant stride towards making the HSO Library that comes with Dorico very musical indeed (with some new presets that better tap the Library's true potential). Until we do get the exclusionary groups in working order...we can just have tons of redundancies in our expression maps, and they'll keep on working far into the future even after we get the new features (and can contemplate offering better/updated versions of expression maps).

Already, as things are TODAY, I can already partially implement this sort of plan. I just have to borrow alternate techniques like 'snares on, snare off'. I'm not yet aware if there are enough of these sorts of toggled techniques on the board to really do it justice (plus it would require all sorts of awkward and less than intuitive documentation to teach folks how to use it), but there's enough working to show proof of concept (I'll email a working score to John for analysis once it's ready).
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Re: Techniqes and Expression Maps: Articulations Under Slur

Postby Puma0382 » Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:37 am

Brian - just to note; legatoPlusStaccatto.png and Clip1 show up fine on both your image hosting site and as *.png image attachments in the browser (Microsoft Edge). Clip2 picture and the last picture about slurs, don't. Clip2.png will launch as an image attachment in the browser. Interesting. :-)
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Re: Techniqes and Expression Maps: Articulations Under Slur

Postby Brian Roland » Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:45 am

Puma0382 wrote:Brian - just to note; legatoPlusStaccatto.png and Clip1 show up fine on both your image hosting site and as *.png image attachments in the browser (Microsoft Edge). Clip2 picture and the last picture about slurs, don't. Clip2.png will launch as an image attachment in the browser. Interesting. :-)


Yeah, they are supposed to be thumb nail 'links' to an image hosting site http://postimage.org.

Sometimes that site flakes out (oh well, it's a free site so I don't complain), so if you don't see images, then try again later and they'll eventually be back.

In some cases I also uploaded the image directly to the forum as well (shows as inline attachments). Each post can only hold three of those (so my fourth image only got a thumbnail link to postimage.org), and I'm not aware of a way to make the forum display and uploaded image as a thumb nail.
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