Empty Bars (Again?)

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GTBannah
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Empty Bars (Again?)

Post by GTBannah » Sat Jun 10, 2017 12:57 am

Hello!

When I try to re-create the Sibelius scenario (a) in Dorico, I get scenario (b).

Any Ideas?

Thanx!
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Scenario (b)
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Scenario (a)
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Derrkins

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Re: Empty Bars (Again?)

Post by Stephen Taylor » Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:24 am

Did you try this dialog box, in Layout Options? That's the gear-shaped icon at the bottom right in Setup mode. The Bar Rests settings are under the Players category. I was able to reproduce your example the way you want it.
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Re: Empty Bars (Again?)

Post by GTBannah » Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:55 am

Stephen Taylor wrote:Did you try this dialog box, in Layout Options? That's the gear-shaped icon at the bottom right in Setup mode. The Bar Rests settings are under the Players category. I was able to reproduce your example the way you want it.
Thank you for the response, Stephen!

Yes, I've been to that page. What I've discovered, after poking around is, that you have to do the "show/hide rests" maneuvre on the "Score" B4 you do it on the part, IIRC. The rests disappear, but then the part shrinks! :(

Students are required to compose a two-bar phrase as an answer to the two given them, so they need the room to write.

Does it have anything to do with Master Pages?

Hmmmm *scratches chin*
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Screen Shot 2017-06-10 at 4.58.22 AM.png
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Screen Shot 2017-06-10 at 5.44.31 AM.png
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Screen Shot 2017-06-10 at 5.48.04 AM.png
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Derrkins

If that's really what you hear, Play It, Sing It, Write It or Program It!

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Re: Empty Bars (Again?)

Post by MarcLarcher » Sat Jun 10, 2017 11:12 am

This has to do with justifing. Go to Layout options (I prefer to use the shortcut shift+cmd+L, since you can use it in any mode), Note Spacing, and uncheck "Only justify final system…" This could help !
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Re: Empty Bars (Again?)

Post by GTBannah » Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:28 pm

MarcLarcher wrote:This has to do with justifing. Go to Layout options (I prefer to use the shortcut shift+cmd+L, since you can use it in any mode), Note Spacing, and uncheck "Only justify final system…" This could help !
*sigh*
That definitely helped! Marked improvement! We're getting there! :)

Now, is there a way of getting the bars to be of the same width?

Thank you!
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Derrkins

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Re: Empty Bars (Again?)

Post by fratveno » Sat Jun 10, 2017 7:13 pm

You can achieve this now by experimenting with Note Spacing Changes. (Engrave menu.) Unless I've misunderstood completely, this may be a lot easier to achieve in the upcoming version...
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Re: Empty Bars (Again?)

Post by GTBannah » Sat Jun 10, 2017 8:31 pm

fratveno wrote:You can achieve this now by experimenting with Note Spacing Changes. (Engrave menu.) Unless I've misunderstood completely, this may be a lot easier to achieve in the upcoming version...
That is EXACTLY what I need! :shock:

I'm confused, though. The default setting for one crotchet/quarter note is 4 spaces. When I reduce it to 3, for example, the bar gets narrow in the dialogue box, but wider on the part.

1) I clicked, among several other places, on the time signature to "engage" note Spacing Changes, changed the value to 3, and the first quaver moved to the right(!) making the space larger.
2) Click on the first barline, end of bar one, changed value from 4 to 3, the barline moved to the right, widening bar 1, but compressing bar 2, and moving that slightly to the right.
3) I entered a negative value for the spacing, and bar one became wider than in other attempts.

Could you share some steps, please? I'm sure this thing is right under my nose, but .... :oops:
Derrkins

If that's really what you hear, Play It, Sing It, Write It or Program It!

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Re: Empty Bars (Again?)

Post by fratveno » Sat Jun 10, 2017 8:43 pm

Well, after some further experimenting, I got by with ONE change, the first empty bar, set to the value of 9... :)
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Re: Empty Bars (Again?)

Post by GTBannah » Sat Jun 10, 2017 8:56 pm

What did you click on; time signature, first note ....?
Derrkins

If that's really what you hear, Play It, Sing It, Write It or Program It!

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Re: Empty Bars (Again?)

Post by fratveno » Sat Jun 10, 2017 9:00 pm

I selected the barline at the start of bar 3...
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Re: Empty Bars (Again?)

Post by GTBannah » Sun Jun 11, 2017 1:53 am

Thanx, Fratveno!

I hope, that as the video tutorials come out, there are some that deal with the more "esoteric" features of this machine! This operation that you walked me through is definitely one of those. Thanx to you, Stephen Taylor and Marc Larcher, I was able to get what I wanted, done, even though, I can't say, that I "understand" how Note Spacing Changes works.

Thanx Million! I owe you gentleman a beer!

(That's one EACH!) :mrgreen:
Derrkins

If that's really what you hear, Play It, Sing It, Write It or Program It!

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Re: Empty Bars (Again?)

Post by Mike2017 » Sun Jun 11, 2017 12:05 pm

MarcLarcher wrote:This has to do with justifing. Go to Layout options (I prefer to use the shortcut shift+cmd+L, since you can use it in any mode), Note Spacing, and uncheck "Only justify final system…" This could help !
Hi Marc,
I'm in the 30 day trial period of Dorico and struggling to find my way. I'm having the same problem as indicated by GTBannah (download/file.php?id=22021). I unchecked "Only justify final system…" as you indicated. However, this didn't make the 'tacet rests' dissappear. Is there another solution and btw isn't it possible in Dorico just to delete rests?
Thanks, Mike

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Re: Empty Bars (Again?)

Post by andgle » Sun Jun 11, 2017 6:45 pm

You'll find it under Engraving Options (shift-cmd+E in Engrave mode) - > Rests.

Admins: The 'Only justify..' and tacet questions seems to be quite frequent in both the forum and facebook group. Maybe you can include these in the Faq thread?
Anders

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Re: Empty Bars (Again?)

Post by Mike2017 » Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:28 am

Thanks [andgle]. The engraving options only changes the 'tacet' text into (multi-bar) rests. I see that when I enter notes the rests are automatically replaced by notes. I accidentally entered a 2 bar rest, is there a way to delete these 2 bars? It appears illogical to me not be able to delete rests.

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Re: Empty Bars (Again?)

Post by fratveno » Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:40 am

In notation options/rests you can choose whether to display 'tacet al fine' OR the actual number of bar rests. In Layout Options/Players you can choose to hide bar rests and multibar rests completely. If you want to delete 2 (empty or not) bars, then select the first barline, invoke the popover by typing shift-B and type -2, then hit enter.
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Re: Empty Bars (Again?)

Post by musicmaven » Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:02 pm

fratveno wrote:Well, after some further experimenting, I got by with ONE change, the first empty bar, set to the value of 9... :)
I tried what Frank suggests, but observe that while the spacing looks nice in Engrave mode, the empty measures get smaller while the 1st 2 measures get stretched when looking at Print Mode. I'm guessing that this wouldn't be the case if Dorico had "invisible" place holder notes in bars 3 & 4, but without content, those bars are cast off in what normally would be correct. This context, according to the OP, however, is for students to input their musically ideas, so they need more space. Am I doing something wrong? This would be valuable information for me, so I'd love to see if I can correctly space measures in these [albeit unusual] circumstances.
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Re: Empty Bars (Again?)

Post by MarcLarcher » Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:45 pm

Dear musicmaven,
We know that everything will change in the next weeks with the forthcoming version, concerning Note spacing…
Right now, why not input a bigger meter (that will imply more room) for the empty bars, and hide it ? I would try this direction…
Capture d’écran 2017-06-12 à 18.44.52.png
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[Edit] I have let the meter flag visible so that you understand what I have done ;-) And by the way, not tweaking on note spacing at all here ! Only force duration (o) and then input three whole rests on the last two bars, then hid them using the transparency workaround
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Re: Empty Bars (Again?)

Post by fratveno » Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:57 pm

musicmaven wrote:I tried what Frank suggests, but observe that while the spacing looks nice in Engrave mode, the empty measures get smaller while the 1st 2 measures get stretched when looking at Print Mode.
Hmm... that does not happen here on my system... What I see in print mode is exactly the same spacing I see in Engrave mode (for the same layout) ... :?: and is also what I would expect...
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Re: Empty Bars (Again?)

Post by musicmaven » Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:19 pm

Frank, you are correct, I went back to my test and Print Mode looks identical to Engrave as far as spacing is concerned. (I'm not sure why they were different earlier, but they were).

MarcLarcher - brilliant idea!

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Re: Empty Bars (Again?)

Post by Mike2017 » Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:56 am

fratveno wrote:In notation options/rests you can choose whether to display 'tacet al fine' OR the actual number of bar rests. In Layout Options/Players you can choose to hide bar rests and multibar rests completely. If you want to delete 2 (empty or not) bars, then select the first barline, invoke the popover by typing shift-B and type -2, then hit enter.
Thanks [fratveno], your solution to delete bars works fine. It's probably somewhere in the help pages but it surprises me that it is impossible (for me) to find because it seems an often used option. Btw: I found the option to display 'tacet' or number of bar rests in the 'Engrave' environment, menu Engrave - Engaving options/rests.

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Re: Empty Bars (Again?)

Post by GTBannah » Thu Jun 15, 2017 1:22 am

fratveno wrote:.... If you want to delete 2 (empty or not) bars, then select the first barline, invoke the popover by typing shift-B and type -2, then hit enter.
Hello, Fratveno!

Which mode are you in, when you do this? I am in Write mode, but all that happens is, the "notes" are deleted, but not the bars. :?
Derrkins

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Re: Empty Bars (Again?)

Post by fratveno » Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:49 am

You have to be in write mode, you can't delete anything in Engrave... select the initial barLINE :)
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Re: Empty Bars (Again?)

Post by GTBannah » Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:55 am

fratveno wrote:You have to be in write mode, you can't delete anything in Engrave... select the initial barLINE :)
Yes. I want to delete bars 9 and 10. I Click on the barline at the beginning of bar 19, do Shift-B, type -2, press Enter, and only the "notes" disappear.

Something isn't right.

In the mean time, how do I upload a video of the process I used? Do I use Drop Box, or one of those?
Derrkins

If that's really what you hear, Play It, Sing It, Write It or Program It!

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Re: Empty Bars (Again?)

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Thu Jun 15, 2017 12:05 pm

You can stick something up on YouTube and make it unlisted, then send the link here, or indeed stick something up on Dropbox and post the link.

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Re: Empty Bars (Again?)

Post by GTBannah » Thu Jun 15, 2017 12:54 pm

Daniel at Steinberg wrote:You can stick something up on YouTube and make it unlisted, then send the link here, or indeed stick something up on Dropbox and post the link.
Thanx, Daniel! I opted for YouTube ....

https://youtu.be/Aig04o_vlJ8
Derrkins

If that's really what you hear, Play It, Sing It, Write It or Program It!

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