import midifile created with Sibelius

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import midifile created with Sibelius

Post by tomboul » Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:23 pm

Hello,

I've exported from Sibelius a midifile type 0 (http://www.lamarmite.fr/aap-jp/i_wish-type0.mid) and type 1 (http://www.lamarmite.fr/aap-jp/i_wish-type1.mid) in GM format, and when i import this in dorico :
- with type 0 : Dorico detects only a single track of piano and put all the instruments inside
- with type 1 : Dorico detects all tracks but dont detect instruments (program change are in the begining of each track)

Perhaps from Sibelius, use MusicXml is much better ...
But i have many midifile (i began to write scores since 1985 !!!) sometime i need return to work on this old score !!!
Perhaps there is a workaround, transform midifile in cubase for having the best midi structure to importing this on Dorico
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Re: import midifile created with Sibelius

Post by PaulWalmsley » Wed Jun 28, 2017 4:05 pm

Dorico doesn't currently import type 0 files. For type 1 files, Dorico has no way of knowing what actual instruments were used in it. It can't assume it's a General MIDI file because in many cases it won't be. It tries to guess the instruments from the track names, but in this MIDI file there are no track names so you end up with lots of default instruments (which happens to be a flute).

There are two things you can do - either open the MIDI file in a sequencer and add track names, or in Setup mode use Change Instrument to change it the instrument you want.
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Re: import midifile created with Sibelius

Post by tomboul » Wed Jun 28, 2017 5:00 pm

Hello Paul, thant for your very quick answer ...

To look at the track name of midifile can be very ambiguous, what is the used languages ? What spelling ? Etc...
Sibelius dont put track name in exported midifile ...

Since 1991 (date of creation of the standard GM) sharing midifile became more easy !!! before it was almost impossible ! All shared midifile inevitably containing standard GM or GS or less often in XG.
It's rarely otherwise ... Many synthesizers use the standard GM, and almost all the software as Sibelius, Cubase, etc ...

If you don't have track name, why not choose instrument with Program Change ?
99,99% of midifile are in GM standard ...
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Re: import midifile created with Sibelius

Post by PaulWalmsley » Wed Jun 28, 2017 5:06 pm

It's really not the case that the MIDI files used by many Dorico users are all GM. A very common workflow is transferring MIDI files from a sequencer, and it's very rare that these will be GM. And if the file isn't GM then you can't map the program change to a proper instrument because you need to know which VST it was assigned to and which patch was loaded. GM was a common interchange format in the 1990s, but not used very much by professional users.

In the future it's likely that we'll offer an import dialog that will give more control over MIDI file import to specify whether a file is GM or not.
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Re: import midifile created with Sibelius

Post by tomboul » Wed Jun 28, 2017 6:05 pm

Thank you Paul ...

My last point :

Dorico is a very recent software. Most of the dorico users will come from Sibelius or Finale or cubase, all these software, except Cubase, export in standard GM or use GM standard (cubase use GM to get instruments)

These users will need to import midifiles from their old software

It will be very good that Dorico will ask in a dialog box, if the midifile is in GM format, but in my opinion, it's the general case.
I remember difficulties exchanging midifile when this standard did not exist before 1991 !!!
but not used very much by professional users.
i'm not agree !!!
when you have specific sounds not listed in GM i'm agree, otherwise when you want to export a trumpet in a midifile you use the program change 57, trombone 58, tuba 59, saxophone alto 66, tenor 67 etc .... it's more simple. So after if you import this midifile with this instrument, most of sequencer using GM get the correct sound (Cubase, Sibelius, Finale, Logic, musescore etc ...)
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Re: import midifile created with Sibelius

Post by PaulWalmsley » Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:19 pm

Users coming from Sibelius or Finale will export in Music XML rather than MIDI - MIDI loses a lot of data. Most users coming from Cubase or Pro Tools will not be using GM.
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Re: import midifile created with Sibelius

Post by tomboul » Wed Jun 28, 2017 11:37 pm

Yes Paul, now musicXml is the best way to import/export score.

But the first basic version 1.0 of musicXml was in 2004, I was subscribed to the musicXml mailing list.
I've tried to use this standard with Cubase in 2007, but this was too difficult because the standard was not adopted in the same way by all the sequencers. I had discussed about this problem on Mailing list...

But now, since 2011 the Version 3.0 working much well !!

I Began to use sequencer since 1986, and i became professionnel in 2000. I think that most futurs users of Dorico have begun to work with software notation before 2011 (date of Version 3.0 of musicXML).
From 1989 till 2003 I worked on old cubase version with the LPT port doogle, but today LPT port is very rare on PC, and i can't open anymore my old cubase file.
Luckily :idea: i have exported all my score in midifile because I thought that it was the standard which will last for a long time. And when i saved all this project in midifile. I knew that i would loose many information but I saved the main part of my work: the Music ...

Do you think it's the end of GM files ?
Last edited by tomboul on Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:22 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: import midifile created with Sibelius

Post by Rob Tuley » Wed Jun 28, 2017 11:51 pm

GM was almost dead on arrival in 1991. Roland launched GS the same year, and Yamaha launched XG in 1994.

Even the GM2 standard hasn't been updated since 1999.

The proposed new HD-MIDI standard has taken 10 years to develop (from 2005 to 2015) but there are no products using it AFAIK.

In computing terms, I would call that "dead." It's still being used for phone ringtones, though.

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Re: import midifile created with Sibelius

Post by tomboul » Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:18 am

Rob,

- you have more than 1 000 000 GM midifiles on the net ... OK There is many waste ;-), but sometime you have some good like this old one that you can listen with a very basic sound card (http://www.lamarmite.fr/aap-jp/Billies_Bouce.mid you have to know the original and listen them both in a same time , good for working on Charlie Parker and Gillespie solo in every tone !!)

- Almost all the music software integrated GM.

- almost electronic devices have a midi controller ! and when it's for music use (like ringtone) that include GM.

This standard was dead from its arrival but only for you 8-)

the HD-MIDI never lived as a standard. I didn't beleive in this because the main advantage of midi standard is its simplicity and its lightness. The use of Midi standard is so wide-spread that it doesn't need to evolve, quite the opposite ... basic midi standard is even going to stay for a long time ...

I Think musicXML is going to replace soon the use of midifile with notation software
Last edited by tomboul on Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: import midifile created with Sibelius

Post by Rob Tuley » Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:30 am

tomboul wrote:you have more than 1 000 000 GM midifiles on the net ...
... and there are more than 30 000 000 audio files on Spotify alone, not counting all the other audio streaming websites.

How many new GM files are being uploaded in 2017, I wonder?

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Re: import midifile created with Sibelius

Post by PaulWalmsley » Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:32 am

To give you an idea of how popular GM files are - this is the first request to support the import of it in the 9 months since the release of Dorico 1.0.

We will probably add the ability to import it specifically in the future, but it's not the highest priority item.
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Re: import midifile created with Sibelius

Post by tomboul » Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:33 am

Rob wrote :
How many new GM files are being uploaded in 2017, I wonder?
you wrote : "GM was almost dead on arrival in 1991"

The standard MP3 has nothing to do with the standard GM, Why you compare these two standards ?
Last edited by tomboul on Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: import midifile created with Sibelius

Post by tomboul » Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:45 am

Ok Paul, if i'm the only one, i'm bowing !!!

i know You have a lot of work to develop this great innovative software that is Dorico !!

I have time to repatch my midifile !!
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Re: import midifile created with Sibelius

Post by Rob Tuley » Thu Jun 29, 2017 2:41 pm

tomboul wrote:The standard MP3 has nothing to do with the standard GM, Why you compare these two standards ?
I'm not comparing the two standards - of course audio and MIDI are different.

I was trying to make the point that "one million files" is actually a small number, compared with the total size of the web.

To make another comparison: about 400 hours of new material is uploaded to YouTube every minute. How many new GM MIDI files are being uploaded somewhere every minute, compared with the amount of new music (in audio or video format) being uploaded to YouTube?

Of course there are some large and useful collections of MIDI files (for example http://www.classicalarchives.com) but most of them are not strictly in GM MIDI format - they used to recommend making the files compatible with Roland's proprietary GS format instead, for better quality playback. And most of the content on classicalarchives is now audio files of live performances, not MIDI.

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Re: import midifile created with Sibelius

Post by tomboul » Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:34 am

Ok Rob, i could say also, how many people are using sequencers or notation software or software for assisting musical composition ? compared to the general public who's only listen music with VLC, quicktime or iTune ... ?
You compare the average users who post on YouTube with the much less number of users who use musical notation or sequencer software ...

Midi standard (and GM) is for a very specific use, only by people who used musical notation, sequencer or composer software, and also midi instrument hardware ... The general public does not use midifiles ... only few of them using midi for rings of phone ... So it's why you do not have to compare MP3 and midi ...

GS is an extension of GM standardization (xg idem), you have more instruments but it's only with roland materials, idem with XG and Yamaha materials
You can read with GM standardization GS or XG midifile, you loose some instruments but in most case you have the main part ...
http://en.audiofanzine.com/computer-mus ... sions.html
Midi standardization must stay very simple, all basics standardizations like GM are more expended than all others complex such as GS or XG.
So you can exchange midi information with all material and software, complex extensions of this standard are allways reserved for a single trademark

All musical software are using midi and GM, almost ALL !!!
And Paul will include GM in dorico ... :P
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Re: import midifile created with Sibelius

Post by PaulWalmsley » Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:09 pm

tomboul wrote:
Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:34 am
All musical software are using midi and GM, almost ALL
Not in the professional sector. Cubase will load a GM file and will pick GM sounds in HALion, but there is no option to export in GM. There can't be, as a sequencer has no knowledge of the sounds that are played by each VST. I will be amazed if loading a GM file into Pro Tools does anything apart from creating raw midi tracks.

GM has had virtually no role in professional products for about 15 to 20 years. It is very poor as an exchange format, as that is not what it was designed for. It was designed in the era before mp3 playback on the desktop as a compact way of representing musical content that could be played in games and other applications.
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Re: import midifile created with Sibelius

Post by Brian Roland » Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:37 am

Rob Tuley wrote:
Wed Jun 28, 2017 11:51 pm
GM was almost dead on arrival in 1991. Roland launched GS the same year, and Yamaha launched XG in 1994.

Even the GM2 standard hasn't been updated since 1999.

The proposed new HD-MIDI standard has taken 10 years to develop (from 2005 to 2015) but there are no products using it AFAIK.

In computing terms, I would call that "dead." It's still being used for phone ringtones, though.
Funny,
I've been begging for the metaverse domains to incorporate MIDI support and a sync signal for over a decade so we could build a VST Host into the viewer (or at least support the simple GM players that ship with most OSes). They all laughed in my face and said, "MIDI is DEAD....NO ONE uses that anymore." So...there went my plans to buy up sims and create virtual music composition, audio engineering, and interactive drill/dance/choreography schools and studios. All we needed was server support for uploading and streaming MIDI files, and a sync signal for working out live performances or locking to animations........and we could be having virtual jam sessions with musicians from around the world in a virtual 3d metaverse........and scripting up virtual music courses, simple studios, etc. We could be doing virtual demos of marching drills, color guard routines, and ballets....But no, they decided the standards needed to do all that are 'obsolete' and 'no one uses them anymore'.

Linden Labs decided for me that my entire industry is "Obsolete". Their comments sounded quite similar to yours. Oh well, I guess they are happy with pole dancer sims........the metaverse could have been so much more........

Saying GM is 'dead' is like saying ASCII, PS/2, or ANSI are 'dead in the water'.

1. Millions of SMF files are out there in the wild world.
2. Millions of devices and virtual devices can load and play them. Every synth, piano, organ, etc I've owned since the early 90s supports it.
3. Thousands of devices and virtual devices can create them.
4. The MMA still exists, and Yamaha is a big player there, and are now deeply connected with *Steinberg*. The only reason the standards have not been growing over the years is because its members seem content with where things are. There is no reason at all that Steinberg can't propose additions and extensions to those standards if they see a need for them.
5. The digital piano and organ markets are still pretty significant. They all still support GM. It's a big deal in church music, and that's a pretty big chunk of where pro audio gear and software is being sold the world over. Neglecting such markets is neglecting a potential cash cow.

Having said all that It's not a huge deal to me that Dorico doesn't currently use the PC events in an SMF import to choose instruments......but I do think it'd be nice to offer that ability in some future version. At some point Dorico will want to reach out to larger potential markets, and all those churches, schools, theaters, and auditoriums around the world outfitted with Yamaha (and other brand) digital pianos and organs are quite numerous. Some of them are old, but they can still record and playback a pianist/organist's performance in GM format. Quite a few might like to entertain the idea of building scores from their rehearsals and performances, and Dorico could someday be the prime tool targeted to these digital piano users.

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Re: import midifile created with Sibelius

Post by PaulWalmsley » Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:27 am

We have said that we hope to add the ability to import GM files (or specifically, identify instruments from their GM program changes), and we hope to add the ability to play back via GM devices, as this is an important user case for users who want an ultra-light playback preview.

However my point is that GM more generally is of little use an interchange format, and hasn't been for 20 years. In the 4 years of development this thread has been the only request for GM file support.
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Re: import midifile created with Sibelius

Post by tomboul » Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:11 am

Paul wrote: However my point is that GM more generally is of little use an interchange format, and hasn't been for 20 years. In the 4 years of development this thread has been the only request for GM file support.
If no request for GM support was made it is perhaps because it was obvious that Dorico would integrate it. Idem, nobody asked for writing septolet because it was obvious that Dorico would integrate it.

Did you know that musicXML uses partially GM standard ?
example for the standardization of percussion drum kit : http://www.musicxml.com/tutorial/percus ... struments/
One of the standardization of GM was to put drum kit in channel 10 ... (drum track is very complex, unpitched note have two pitch, one for the score one other for the sound ... and musicXML use the GM standard with channel 10 and the two pitches for each instrument in drum kit)
And also for many other functionalities ...
Paul Walmsley wrote:Not in the professional sector.

What is "Professional sector" ???
only classical musicians ? its the reason why actually you can't edit drum track with Dorico ? (it's a joke ;) ...)

I think that people who buy Dorico are all professional musicians. In the jobs of musics, there are many different activities and as publisher of notation software, you cannot allow to ignore certain occupations. I understands that you want to stand out as the best software of the profession, you deserve him very well. Dorico is the best musical notation software, At present it is still incomplete, but it is only a question of time !!

To shared files between various software of musical notations, musicXML (standard based on midi standard) is going to replace midi. But it still has a lot to do there. This standard is not still interpreted in the same way by all the publishers.
Even at Steinberg, cubase pro9 do not respect completely the standards of export in musicXML.
here in this topic viewtopic.php?f=246&t=120035&sid=ecf6ff ... b84d9c438d Daniel wrote :
Daniel wrote:We have let the Cubase team know that the export of chord symbols to MusicXML in Cubase is not always entirely correct, and I hope they will be able to make some improvements in this area soon.
I use GM only for my old file, today, for my new musical arrangements i only use muscXML ...

According to you, have I deserves him to be Professional ? ;)
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Re: import midifile created with Sibelius

Post by Brian Roland » Sun Jul 16, 2017 3:28 pm

PaulWalmsley wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:27 am
We have said that we hope to add the ability to import GM files (or specifically, identify instruments from their GM program changes), and we hope to add the ability to play back via GM devices, as this is an important user case for users who want an ultra-light playback preview.

However my point is that GM more generally is of little use an interchange format, and hasn't been for 20 years. In the 4 years of development this thread has been the only request for GM file support.
All I'm saying is that millions of Digital Pianos have been sold over the decades....there are untapped markets out there for people who might wish to move their decades worth of performances (stored up as SMF) into a proper score. It never was put into a 'score' for 'interchange' in the first place. Such people might be interested in making that jump. Of course they'd have to add all the human readable articulations, dynamics, etc. by hand...but being able to get as much of the initial performance loaded in and ready to go would be rather helpful. Yes, they CAN already do this if it's a type 1 file....it's not terribly difficult to assign instruments manually. Again, the point is that with millions of SMF devices out there.....it's a long way from being obsolete or dead.

It's probably not the best time to push something like Dorico on the run of the mill Digital Piano owner, but at some point, getting ads in the right places, and product in the hands of the right sales people who are selling and servicing Digital Pianos and the like could lead to a spike in sales.

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Re: import midifile created with Sibelius

Post by Rob Tuley » Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:37 pm

Brian Roland wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 3:28 pm
Of course they'd have to add all the human readable articulations, dynamics, etc. by hand...but being able to get as much of the initial performance loaded in and ready to go would be rather helpful.
Adding articulations, dynamics, etc is probably the easy 1% of the job, compared with trying to quantize the rhythm - even if the recording actually has a regular rhythm rather than being what some people call "expressive..."

When I've done this (for other people) I find it's usually quicker just to transcribe the audio by ear and write the notation, and only use the MIDI to check the notes as a "Plan B" option.

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Re: import midifile created with Sibelius

Post by Derrek » Sun Jul 16, 2017 5:36 pm

Professional arranger/conductor Tim Davies has a video on his debreved.com site called "Extreme Australian Orchestration"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeCuJfXhS9s
And before the end of the first minute of the video, he starts discussing cleaning up and importing MIDI files into a notation package.
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Re: import midifile created with Sibelius

Post by Brian Roland » Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:35 pm

Rob Tuley wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:37 pm
Brian Roland wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 3:28 pm
Of course they'd have to add all the human readable articulations, dynamics, etc. by hand...but being able to get as much of the initial performance loaded in and ready to go would be rather helpful.
Adding articulations, dynamics, etc is probably the easy 1% of the job, compared with trying to quantize the rhythm - even if the recording actually has a regular rhythm rather than being what some people call "expressive..."

When I've done this (for other people) I find it's usually quicker just to transcribe the audio by ear and write the notation, and only use the MIDI to check the notes as a "Plan B" option.
That's what LUA scripts will be for......and eventually Dorico may well include some user interfaces to build simple scripts on the fly (like the Logic Editors in CuBase).

In CuBase we can use simple logic editors to automate things. I.E. Select a range of notes and quanatize just those note-on events to a strict set of rules. Select some more and quanatize just the note off events to some set of rules. Etc... One can even build scripts that'll do the selecting for you....
I.E. select anything within 30 ticks of beat A, with a duration no shorter than B, or longer than C in bars 20 - 40. Then you could look at the score and quickly deselect things with the mouse that you don't want to alter, then run another bit of logic that does something to all those selected notes, etc.

More complex scripts could do things like use a groove template to predict where the 'beat' really lay in a selected range of bars, and quanatize it to straight beats for the sake of scoring. In Cubase I actually cheat sometimes with SMF files that have a flowing tempo, and just go through and mark the beats with some midi notes of an extreme range (I.E. note 120 for beat one, 121 for beat 2, 122 for beat 3, etc. Next I use that as a reference to lock onto all notes in a track/stave close to it and shift it to where I want it for scoring, then strip (or mute until I'm done with them) my beat marker note events. It's a heck of a lot faster than trying to do everything manually with note by note editing, or transcribing the whole thing on paper first then entering the whole piece in one note at the time.

Point is, at some point we'll be able to automate a whole bunch more stuff in Dorico than is obvious in this early version 1.x series of releases. Great things are coming........Unless of course the developers decide all this is 'obsolete', and 'no one will use it', and thus decide, 'not to make it possible'. I think they'll eventually get around to putting in support for an option that importing GM SMF files might attempt to set up the initial Layout for us and plug in GM instruments based on the PC events. It's not a deal breaker for me, but I just get discouraged any time I see an individual get rock and declare things as 'obsolete since its inception' without considering that their own sister company sells thousands of SMF generating devices on a daily basis....even in 2017, and millions of people use them at least on a weekly basis, for 'professional work' in class rooms and churches the world over.

It kind of goes back to my initial post on this thread about Linden Labs attitude that the 'entire MIDI protocol' is 'obsolete'. They could be selling sims to music and dance studios, and content makers could be doing all kinds of creative things synced to their own music, using mere kilobytes of server-side storage space and band-width.....but since a small group of loud mouths decided MIDI is 'obsolete' all you can get are 10 second chunks of wav files that can't even be synced to anything. There are reasons people went to all the trouble to create various standards......no one person gets to decide they are suddenly 'obsolete'.

I convert live performances into notation all the time here in Cubase for church musicians who record organ and piano performances directly to floppy or flash media on their X thousand dollar Yamaha console, and want them transcribed into scores they can study and manipulate. Of course it's a nightmare if you go through and try to do it one note at a time......but scripts/plugins/logic editors/etc, help make fairly quick work of it. Presently, I'm most often expected to convert all my CuBase work into Finale or Sibelius, but I'm looking forward to a day when Digital Instrument dealers might push Dorico as part of the deal for that sweet 6k digital piano (or acoustic model with MIDI player mechanics) or MIDI organ console or digital organ that's about to go into a class room or church.

Dorico is young yet.....but I'm confident it'll get all this stuff and more. The potential market out there for people who make SMF files on their digital instruments is huge. I've no problem with them having bigger priorities than play back right now. It is a very smart and competent team, as long as they don't decide too many things are totally obsolete without thinking it through.....the right kind of SMF importing and exporting could actually help tap and build a very valid, ethical, and under-valued market of 'professional musicians'.
Last edited by Brian Roland on Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: import midifile created with Sibelius

Post by Rob Tuley » Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:33 pm

Different folk, different tools. I learned how to do this sort of stuff with two standard issue ears, a pencil and some MS paper before personal computers even existed. From your posts on music technology here, I suspect that you didn't!

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Re: import midifile created with Sibelius

Post by Brian Roland » Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:39 pm

Rob Tuley wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:33 pm
Different folk, different tools. I learned how to do this sort of stuff with two standard issue ears, a pencil and some MS paper before personal computers even existed. From your posts on music technology here, I suspect that you didn't!
You would be wrong. I transcribe from ear to paper rather frequently. When I started my formal music education there was KCS Omega, and Hybrid Arts. I could not afford any Atari ST. My university music department did not have a single personal computer, and they would not even let us have email accounts on the campus main-frames (only engineering and business students could get that). By the time I graduated, Cu-base, Cakewalk, Notator, Bars and Pipes, and a few others existed. I was not able to afford a PC (A used Atari ST) until sometime in the mid 90s...after I'd graduated. I could not afford a multi-timbral 'synth/sampler' to hook up to it until even later, and it was more than 2k USED, and rather limited in polyphony at that.

I still do marching drill on a homemade light board because PyWare is an inefficient disaster for me. The thing is....even in my small town of only 3,000 people....there are more than a dozen churches, with keyboardists who practice, improvise, and record right on their console in SMF. They hand me piles of flash drives and floppy disks and get scores back in their favorite format(s) that they can analyze and do whatever they want with from there.

I can do things for them for a few bucks an hour and it's very affordable to them. In contrast, if I tried to do this by ear to paper for them it would take me much longer....they would be rather put off by how much it'd cost them to get me to do a few minutes of score for them. Thanks to tools like CuBase and Dorico, I can deliver months of practices, performances, improvisation sessions, etc. fairly easily and quickly......it's more affordable to them, so they keep sending me work. They get better, I get better, etc.......
Last edited by Brian Roland on Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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