What is missing in Dorico for VSL

Discussions about our next-generation scoring application, Dorico.
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Re: What is missing in Dorico for VSL

Post by cyril » Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:02 pm

DaddyO wrote: it would be nice to have a single map encompassing all articulations across woodwinds, brass, and strings. This, of course, would require a quite lengthy map and a standardized VI Pro matrix across all instances.

.
You can have a VE of a 100 or more VI, if you use IAC there should be no problem
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Re: What is missing in Dorico for VSL

Post by cyril » Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:16 pm

fratveno wrote: Please observe that these Cubase Xmaps contain LOTS of techniques that are not currently understood by Dorico, and hence will not work. Also, all techniques seem to be (at least those I just tried) set to Volume Dynamic: Note Velocity. For VSL these should be changed to: Control Change 11. Otherwise the techniques that Dorico does understand all seem to be coded correctly as long as the corresponding default matrices are used in the Vienna Instruments Player.

Daniel can you comment on this ?
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Re: What is missing in Dorico for VSL

Post by DaddyO » Tue Jul 11, 2017 8:30 pm

cyril wrote:
DaddyO wrote: it would be nice to have a single map encompassing all articulations across woodwinds, brass, and strings. This, of course, would require a quite lengthy map and a standardized VI Pro matrix across all instances.

.
You can have a VE of a 100 or more VI, if you use IAC there should be no problem
Not sure what you mean by IAC.

But sure, you can build such a VE using the VST3 version of VE Pro. I have done so and use it in Cubase. But since Dorico does not yet support MIDI ports, with this program you can only access one MIDI port and 16 channels per VI instance.

Now, if IAC is something that overcomes that, I am all ears.

edited to add:

I looked up IAC, it appears it is a Mac feature, that's why I'm not familiar with it. I am on Windows 10. :)
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Re: What is missing in Dorico for VSL

Post by fratveno » Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:11 pm

Inter application communication.... e.g. nerds.de ... there are free alternatives as well
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Re: What is missing in Dorico for VSL

Post by MarkSealey » Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:16 pm

DaddyO,

I've yet to experiment with VSL VIs, having only recently returned to Dorico after a break.

It's definitely on my list, as is Ivory II.

Maybe the best thing is to try a direct connection between Dorico and VIP and see if you can get it to work.

I know that with Sibelius, Andi and his team have always advised VEP to control VIP, and - as you say - to channel through MIR.
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Re: What is missing in Dorico for VSL

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:45 pm

cyril wrote:Daniel can you comment on this ?
I don't have anything to add. Frank's assessment is correct. I think you need to roll up your sleeves and try some of this stuff out for yourself, Cyril.

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Re: What is missing in Dorico for VSL

Post by cyril » Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:33 am

Daniel at Steinberg wrote:
cyril wrote:Daniel can you comment on this ?
I don't have anything to add. Frank's assessment is correct. I think you need to roll up your sleeves and try some of this stuff out for yourself, Cyril.
Hello Daniel,

I am going back home on Sunday, and I will put my hand into it.

Frank also said : "Please observe that these Cubase Xmaps contain LOTS of techniques that are not currently understood by Dorico, and hence will not work"

Looking in Dorico it seems a lot of articulation/playing technique are handle, is there is a list of articulation/playing technique that are not handle in Dorico yet ?

One thing that is stopping me to use Dorico is that when you import a Midi or XML file you cannot see the note dynamic used when you are in the "Write" mode ! is it plan for next release ?

In the mean time I will make my template using VSL/MIR and if the result are great I will keep my VSL libs, otherwise I will sell them
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Re: What is missing in Dorico for VSL

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:44 pm

No, there's no canonical list of the playing techniques that are or are not handled in Dorico. All playing techniques can be played to some extent, but when used in combination with one another, or when switching between them, not everything will work as you would expect. I realise it's frustrating not to be able to say with certainty what works and what doesn't, but everything is very much in flux as we build this part of the application.

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Re: What is missing in Dorico for VSL

Post by cyril » Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:44 am

Hello Daniel

Thanks for your answer.

You did not reply to :
One thing that is stopping me to use Dorico is that when you import a Midi or XML file you cannot see the note dynamic used when you are in the "Write" mode ! is it plan for next release ?
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System on a 1 TB ssd
Audio Motu PCI system 84 ins / 64 outs
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I-Controls Pro, 2xMidi expression pedals
Synth : many....
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Re: What is missing in Dorico for VSL

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:31 am

No, it is not planned for the next release, but it is planned for the future.

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Re: What is missing in Dorico for VSL

Post by cyril » Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:59 pm

Daniel at Steinberg wrote:
Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:31 am
No, it is not planned for the next release, but it is planned for the future.
Hello Daniel

It's pity because that mean that I have to wait to use Dorico !

If I put a PP before a series of notes that are at 80, 90, 60, 50, 30, 20 ; what value will be taken by Dorico for the following notes that are at 90, 60, 50, 30, 20 ?
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Re: What is missing in Dorico for VSL

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:01 pm

Dorico does not currently respect the velocity of notes imported from MIDI files in any case; it uses only the dynamics in the score to determine the played dynamic.

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Re: What is missing in Dorico for VSL

Post by cyril » Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:35 pm

Daniel at Steinberg wrote:
Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:01 pm
Dorico does not currently respect the velocity of notes imported from MIDI files in any case; it uses only the dynamics in the score to determine the played dynamic.
:(
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Re: What is missing in Dorico for VSL

Post by PaulWalmsley » Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:51 pm

We will at some point have this ability -- lots of the required logic is already there, however there are still a few missing pieces.
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Re: What is missing in Dorico for VSL

Post by cyril » Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:04 pm

PaulWalmsley wrote:
Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:51 pm
We will at some point have this ability -- lots of the required logic is already there, however there are still a few missing pieces.
GREAT

THANKS
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I-Controls Pro, 2xMidi expression pedals
Synth : many....
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Re: What is missing in Dorico for VSL

Post by PaulWalmsley » Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:24 pm

One thing to bear in mind is that Dorico's playback model is much higher level than just MIDI velocity. Many plugins don't use note velocity at all. Dorico has a more abstract model of 'dynamic level', and the relationship between the dynamic level and the final MIDI velocity (or modwheel control, etc) depends on many factors: the dynamic in the score, the dynamic level curve, humanisation options, playing techniques, expression maps, etc.

We do expect to add the ability to control the dynamics via automation curves in a future version, which we hope will give the amount of control that serious users need.
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Re: What is missing in Dorico for VSL

Post by cyril » Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:59 pm

PaulWalmsley wrote:
Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:24 pm
One thing to bear in mind is that Dorico's playback model is much higher level than just MIDI velocity. Many plugins don't use note velocity at all. Dorico has a more abstract model of 'dynamic level', and the relationship between the dynamic level and the final MIDI velocity (or modwheel control, etc) depends on many factors: the dynamic in the score, the dynamic level curve, humanisation options, playing techniques, expression maps, etc.

We do expect to add the ability to control the dynamics via automation curves in a future version, which we hope will give the amount of control that serious users need.
If you can be fully compatible with VSL, this is fine for me (VSL used both, CTRL 11 and note dynamic)
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System on a 1 TB ssd
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I-Controls Pro, 2xMidi expression pedals
Synth : many....
---
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Re: What is missing in Dorico for VSL

Post by fratveno » Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:13 pm

... but quite a number of libraries use key velocity to control such things as legato type and portamento, quite independently of dynamics, so the ability to specify this manually is actually quite important.
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Re: What is missing in Dorico for VSL

Post by cyril » Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:54 pm

> but quite a number of libraries use key velocity to control such things as legato type and portamento, quite independently of dynamics, so the ability to specify this manually is actually quite important.

QLSO EXS, and VSL are using notes to change articulation !
Which lib are using key velocity to change articulation ! this is not serious !
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Re: What is missing in Dorico for VSL

Post by fratveno » Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:08 pm

Spitfire Audio, Orchestral Tools.... hardly not serious :shock:
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Re: What is missing in Dorico for VSL

Post by Rob Tuley » Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:10 pm

Even the Garritan libraries don't use note velocity for dynamics, but for timbre. There is a separate controller assigned for dynamics. (But maybe Cyril doesn't regard Garritan as "serious" compared with VSL).

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Re: What is missing in Dorico for VSL

Post by Minimalist » Sat Jul 15, 2017 3:37 am

I was hoping articulation maps would be superior in Dorico over Cubase. Scoring with VSL would be most desirable. I've been frustrated that you can't use all the VSL articulations for some instruments in the Cubase Maps because t's limited by the size and resolution of your monitor which is absurd. I have a stand which allows me to rotate my monitor to a vertical position which helps. It also is a pain when you have a big map and you have to scroll down because it slows and the scrolling can take a couple minutes to get to the bottom of the map editor. It seems like maybe it was designed for Halion which is inferior to VSL.

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Re: What is missing in Dorico for VSL

Post by cyril » Sat Jul 15, 2017 4:28 am

Rob Tuley wrote:
Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:10 pm
But maybe Cyril doesn't regard Garritan as "serious" compared with VSL).
You get for what you pay

All specialist says that the VSL is still the best library today
What is bad is the VSL marketing :(

Look at the video of VI PRO ! to my knowledge there is nothing like this !
When you play a note many time, it will not use the same sample !
Listen to all piece of classical music made by users
The realism is incredible
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System on a 1 TB ssd
Audio Motu PCI system 84 ins / 64 outs
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Re: What is missing in Dorico for VSL

Post by Rob Tuley » Sat Jul 15, 2017 5:52 am

cyril wrote:
Sat Jul 15, 2017 4:28 am
Listen to all piece of classical music made by users
The realism is incredible
We can agree to disagree about that. The difference between a live and a synthesized performance of the same piece is usually pretty obvious within 30 seconds IMO - or within 10 seconds for a badly made synthesis. That is true whether the sample library cost $100 or $10,000.

But if people stop trying to imitate live performances and do something original with a sample library, that's a different story. The only problem is that most people don't have much "originality" in them!

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Re: What is missing in Dorico for VSL

Post by cyril » Sat Jul 15, 2017 10:05 am

Rob Tuley wrote:
Sat Jul 15, 2017 5:52 am
cyril wrote:
Sat Jul 15, 2017 4:28 am
Listen to all piece of classical music made by users
The realism is incredible
We can agree to disagree about that. The difference between a live and a synthesized performance of the same piece is usually pretty obvious within 30 seconds IMO - or within 10 seconds for a badly made synthesis. That is true whether the sample library cost $100 or $10,000.
If you look at QLSO, nobody has dare to make a mockup of classical pieces !

VSL is sampling real instrument so it is not synthesised performance. (1)
I will agree if you are a musician. Since VI PRO VSL has move a step forward !
Did you listen to the result with VI PRO !
It is also depending who programmed the piece !

For the average citizen, he will be fooled by VSL !
I did a few audio test with other people ;)

> That is true whether the sample library cost $100 or $10,000.

You are putting your finger in the eye (French expression) LOL
Best

Cyril

1) The Vienna Imperial virtual grand piano is a class of its own. The venerable Bösendorfer Imperial 290-755 that our team hosted at the Silent Stage for two months was equipped with the famed piano manufacturer’s CEUS technology (details below), which allowed for the most precise and by far most extensive piano sample recordings ever conducted in the history of music technology. 1,200 recorded samples per key represent a magnitude of sampling detail that has been unthinkable up to now.
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