What is missing in Dorico for VSL

[MarkSealey]

VSL VIs are indeed not synthesized but sampled.

I'm a big supporter of VSL instruments.

But if I'm honest I have rarely, if ever, been totally satisfied with the end result… it almost always has a tinge of artificiality, which I know can be improved upon.

The 'professional' examples (e.g. those on the VSL site) are, though, as good as I believe they can be - and I'd be 90% happy to be able to configure my MIR, VEP and VIP etc accordingly.

If anyone's interested in discussing this in the context of Dorico - as we did here for Sibelius - I'd love to join in and help/learn, please!

[Rob Tuley]

1) The Vienna Imperial virtual grand piano is a class of its own. The venerable Bösendorfer Imperial 290-755 that our team hosted at the Silent Stage for two months was equipped with the famed piano manufacturer’s CEUS technology (details below), which allowed for the most precise and by far most extensive piano sample recordings ever conducted in the history of music technology. 1,200 recorded samples per key represent a magnitude of sampling detail that has been unthinkable up to now.

1,200 recorded samples per key is completely pointless, IMO. Read about physical instrument modelling, and listen to some Pianoteq demos (played live) to find out why. (Note, the reason is not just that Pianoteq only needs 40Mb of disk space and 0.25Gb of memory, compared with whatever you need to run VI.)

Reading the VI description, I don't see anything about "half pedalling" or the effect of the speed of pedal movement on the tone - both of which Pianoteq can model.

And with the full version of Pianoteq (which admittedly costs more than VI) you can re-voice every note of the piano individually if you want to - and some users do just that, to get the sound they really want!

I listened to the VI demos. Yeah, it sounds something like a Bösendorfer (I've played one often enough to give my opinion about that) - but only "something like", not "exactly like".

[cyril]

1) The Vienna Imperial virtual grand piano is a class of its own. The venerable Bösendorfer Imperial 290-755 that our team hosted at the Silent Stage for two months was equipped with the famed piano manufacturer’s CEUS technology (details below), which allowed for the most precise and by far most extensive piano sample recordings ever conducted in the history of music technology. 1,200 recorded samples per key represent a magnitude of sampling detail that has been unthinkable up to now.

1,200 recorded samples per key is completely pointless, IMO. Read about physical instrument modelling, and listen to some Pianoteq demos (played live) to find out why. (Note, the reason is not just that Pianoteq only needs 40Mb of disk space and 0.25Gb of memory, compared with whatever you need to run VI.)

Reading the VI description, I don't see anything about "half pedalling" or the effect of the speed of pedal movement on the tone - both of which Pianoteq can model.

And with the full version of Pianoteq (which admittedly costs more than VI) you can re-voice every note of the piano individually if you want to - and some users do just that, to get the sound they really want!

I listened to the VI demos. Yeah, it sounds something like a Bösendorfer (I've played one often enough to give my opinion about that) - but only "something like", not "exactly like".

to do a complete comparaison you need to do a blind test and play it !

You need to change glasses, it says :
The innovative implementation of meticulously recorded pedal-up and pedal-down notes in up to 100 velocities, comprehensive sympathetic resonances, and multiple release samples make the Vienna Imperial the most realistic sampled piano you’ve ever heard.

The samples :
REGULAR
Sustain pedal up
Sustain pedal down
Repetition tones for sustain pedal down
Release samples for various note lengths
SOFT PEDAL (una corda)
Soft pedal (una corda) Sustain Pedal up
Soft pedal (una corda) Sustain Pedal down
Repetition tones for Sustain Pedal down
Release samples for various note lengths
SPECIALS
Sympathetic resonance tones of individual keys (sustain pedal up)
Sympathetic resonance tones of the whole piano (sustain pedal down)

You need :
Sample Amount 69,633
Download File Size 46.8 GB
Installed File Size 46.8 GB

[dko22]

VSL VIs are indeed not synthesized but sampled.

I'm a big supporter of VSL instruments.

But if I'm honest I have rarely, if ever, been totally satisfied with the end result… it almost always has a tinge of artificiality, which I know can be improved upon.

The 'professional' examples (e.g. those on the VSL site) are, though, as good as I believe they can be - and I'd be 90% happy to be able to configure my MIR, VEP and VIP etc accordingly.

If anyone's interested in discussing this in the context of Dorico - as we did here for Sibelius - I'd love to join in and help/learn, please!

It's interesting being reminded of the thread which I started on the VSL forum a while back. In general, I've managed to get reasonable results in the end but the way the Sibelius solo strings templates at any rate work can still be puzzling in the way that they don't always choose the patch you might expect or want and I found myself creating custom ones to force the exact articulation. I've no idea how all this fits in with where Dorico is at present --- I get the impression that now the best part of a year later, there is still not a dedicated, fully working expression map for Dorico?

Perhaps when version 2 comes out, I'll have another look at the software. If the playback side isn't at least as good as Sib (and preferably better) then there's little point for people like me.

[MarkSealey]

This thread is relevant here: things are moving .

…I've no idea how all this fits in with where Dorico is at present --- I get the impression that now the best part of a year later, there is still not a dedicated, fully working expression map for Dorico?

[dko22]

I saw this but am not aware of any fully working and tested expression map for VSL? Have I missed something here?

[MarkSealey]

dko22,

Some (Dorico) users have had partial success with the VSL Expression Maps for Cubase.

Otherwise you're essentially correct: hence that thread to see what (else) needs to be/can be done to integrate the most popular VIs into Dorico. May I ask you to add your suggestion there so that John can note a +1, so to speak, for VSL?

Thanks!

[leigh_d]

As far as I know there are no official Dorico expression maps for any Vienna libraries.

I can get some basic functionality from the Cubase VSL Xmaps but not the scope and reliability of the Sibelius VSL Soundsets.

I believe that we will eventually get reliable Xmaps because Dorico is really good for film scoring and many film composers use VSL.

**Leigh