EastWest Gold Expression maps?

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Andre
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EastWest Gold Expression maps?

Post by Andre » Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:09 pm

Did someone make EW Gold expression maps? I am using their solo strings and assigned the HSO violin Solo expression map for now, but the violin keeps on playing trills instead of a sustained note, I assume this is because the wrong sample is being triggered.

edit...
I made some Maps today for the solo strings. Wasn't that hard after all. Although only the articulations seem to be working, not the dynamics. I remember I had this problem also in an earlier version of Dorico.
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Re: EastWest Gold Expression maps?

Post by rexwine » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:47 pm

I just started working on this today. And by that, I mean, I figured out how to get the EastWest 10Cellos patch to play in Dorico.

Could you tell me what issues you've run into so far with EastWestKS articulations? And did you resolve most of them?

I can see your original post is about a month ago, so I figure you have been at it for awhile..


Thanks.

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Re: EastWest Gold Expression maps?

Post by Andre » Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:52 am

I was able to make good working expression maps for the EW strings, but got weird noises like extra bass tones and tones playing that aren't in the score, so I stopped working with maps. I am using the default player for now, maybe a next update will fix this.
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Daniel at Steinberg
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Re: EastWest Gold Expression maps?

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:40 am

If you're getting extra bass tones and tones that aren't written in the score, that strongly suggests that you've got some problems with the keyswitches you have defined in your new expression maps.

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Re: EastWest Gold Expression maps?

Post by Andre » Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:56 am

Daniel at Steinberg wrote:
Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:40 am
If you're getting extra bass tones and tones that aren't written in the score, that strongly suggests that you've got some problems with the keyswitches you have defined in your new expression maps.
I didn't even think of that possibility, that's probably what was going on, thanks Daniel!
My music and tutorials on http://www.andrevanharen.com
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Sibelius 6.2, Sibelius 7.5, Sibelius 8.5. Cubase 8.5, Logic Pro X. EWQLSO Gold, Kirk Hunter Diamond Orchestra/Concert Strings 2/Concert Brass 2, NotePerformer 2.0 etc etc...

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Re: EastWest Gold Expression maps?

Post by rexwine » Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:04 pm

Andre wrote:
Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:52 am
I was able to make good working expression maps for the EW strings, but got weird noises like extra bass tones and tones playing that aren't in the score, so I stopped working with maps. I am using the default player for now, maybe a next update will fix this.
Thanks.

I guess will start, hope for the best and see how it goes.

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Re: EastWest Gold Expression maps?

Post by Andre » Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:57 pm

rexwine wrote:
Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:04 pm
Andre wrote:
Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:52 am
I was able to make good working expression maps for the EW strings, but got weird noises like extra bass tones and tones playing that aren't in the score, so I stopped working with maps. I am using the default player for now, maybe a next update will fix this.
Thanks.

I guess will start, hope for the best and see how it goes.
Here are the onces I made for my project. EWQLSO solo violin, viola, cello and bass; and trumpet, trombone and tuba solo:
Archive.zip
(10.56 KiB) Downloaded 31 times
My music and tutorials on http://www.andrevanharen.com
iMac 2,8 GHz Intel Core i5, 16 GB ram, macOS High Sierra.
Sibelius 6.2, Sibelius 7.5, Sibelius 8.5. Cubase 8.5, Logic Pro X. EWQLSO Gold, Kirk Hunter Diamond Orchestra/Concert Strings 2/Concert Brass 2, NotePerformer 2.0 etc etc...

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Re: EastWest Gold Expression maps?

Post by ShikiSuen » Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:07 am

Daniel at Steinberg wrote:
Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:40 am
If you're getting extra bass tones and tones that aren't written in the score, that strongly suggests that you've got some problems with the keyswitches you have defined in your new expression maps.
Daniel, I tried those EW Hollywood Strings Expression maps downloaded from your Steinberg website. These maps are generated prior to your admission to Steinberg. I tried and found an issue that Dorico 1.1 writes insufficient MIDI data to the exported MIDI file for any MIDI instrument track in a Dorico file that uses certain expression maps of those I used above. Such exported MIDI file, if you open that, you could see that it has lack of certain tracks of what I said above. I am afraid that you guys may want to perform a thorough test to those old expression maps on Steinberg website to check compatibility issues with Dorico.

P.S.: I also tried VST Expression maps of Vienna Special Collecions Volume I (fetched from VSL website) and found its piano expression map could cause exactly the same issue as well. Fortunately I suddenly realised that I don't need a specific expression map in Dorico for piano.
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Re: EastWest Gold Expression maps?

Post by rexwine » Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:34 am

Andre wrote:
Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:52 am
I was able to make good working expression maps for the EW strings, but got weird noises like extra bass tones and tones playing that aren't in the score, so I stopped working with maps. I am using the default player for now, maybe a next update will fix this.
I worked on the solo clarinet from EW. But I was unable to affect the dynamics. "pppppp" had no effect for instance.

I could be doing something wrong, but right now this makes it unusable to me.

I've not tried your maps yet.

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Re: EastWest Gold Expression maps?

Post by Andre » Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:52 pm

I don't think you need to create dynamics in the epxressions maps, isn't Dorico handling that by itself? And I am not sure if I would hear the difference between ppppp and pppppp..
My music and tutorials on http://www.andrevanharen.com
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Sibelius 6.2, Sibelius 7.5, Sibelius 8.5. Cubase 8.5, Logic Pro X. EWQLSO Gold, Kirk Hunter Diamond Orchestra/Concert Strings 2/Concert Brass 2, NotePerformer 2.0 etc etc...

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Re: EastWest Gold Expression maps?

Post by rexwine » Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:15 pm

Andre wrote:
Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:52 pm
I don't think you need to create dynamics in the epxressions maps, isn't Dorico handling that by itself? And I am not sure if I would hear the difference between ppppp and pppppp..
There's no difference between ppppppp and fffffff. when Dorico handles it.

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Re: EastWest Gold Expression maps?

Post by PaulWalmsley » Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:11 pm

There is a known issue currently where dynamics that are edited don't take effect correctly until the next time the score is loaded. There is also another issue which is fixed for the immediate update where the dynamic curve isn't respected for patches that use note velocity (it works as expected for mod wheel instruments). Can you attach a score that shows the problem you are talking about because it's working fine for me?
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Re: EastWest Gold Expression maps?

Post by rexwine » Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:25 am

PaulWalmsley wrote:
Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:11 pm
There is a known issue currently where dynamics that are edited don't take effect correctly until the next time the score is loaded. There is also another issue which is fixed for the immediate update where the dynamic curve isn't respected for patches that use note velocity (it works as expected for mod wheel instruments). Can you attach a score that shows the problem you are talking about because it's working fine for me?
II got really frustrated with the clarinet patch not working no matter what I did.

So, after giving up, I then tried the Solo Bassoon and got it working!

Right now, I think the problem is, I did that edit where you unlock the padlock icon, but never relocked it on the clarinet. At least that's what I think I missed. Go back and try it tomorrow.

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Re: EastWest Gold Expression maps?

Post by rexwine » Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:31 am

Andre wrote:
Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:57 pm

Here are the onces I made for my project. EWQLSO solo violin, viola, cello and bass; and trumpet, trombone and tuba solo:
Archive.zip
Andre -
Not sure on all your patches, because only looked at one so far, but on the Play interface you can unload all those articulations that aren't being used if you want a lighter load, by unclicking the boxes..

You may know that already, but thought I would mention it.

I'm going to upload whatever new patches I make that you haven't. (probably couple days from now)

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Re: EastWest Gold Expression maps?

Post by Andre » Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:33 am

Thanks, I did know that, but I didn't realize it could make things faster. Good idea.
My music and tutorials on http://www.andrevanharen.com
iMac 2,8 GHz Intel Core i5, 16 GB ram, macOS High Sierra.
Sibelius 6.2, Sibelius 7.5, Sibelius 8.5. Cubase 8.5, Logic Pro X. EWQLSO Gold, Kirk Hunter Diamond Orchestra/Concert Strings 2/Concert Brass 2, NotePerformer 2.0 etc etc...

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Re: EastWest Gold Expression maps?

Post by rexwine » Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:36 am

Andre wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:33 am
Thanks, I did know that, but I didn't realize it could make things faster. Good idea.
Well, in theory, I think it does. But haven't tested it for sure.

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Re: EastWest Gold Expression maps?

Post by rexwine » Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:35 am

PaulWalmsley wrote:
Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:11 pm
There is a known issue currently where dynamics that are edited don't take effect correctly until the next time the score is loaded. There is also another issue which is fixed for the immediate update where the dynamic curve isn't respected for patches that use note velocity (it works as expected for mod wheel instruments). Can you attach a score that shows the problem you are talking about because it's working fine for me?
When I zip the Dorico file using the Play player, the forum rejects it as too big,

With SE it's small enough, but SE already works fine.

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Re: EastWest Gold Expression maps?

Post by rexwine » Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:45 am

Okay, I figured it out. Sorry about the extra measures. I hacked away at the composition, and wasn't certain how to clear the empty one.
Attachments
dynamic test1.zip
(499.17 KiB) Downloaded 17 times

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Re: EastWest Gold Expression maps?

Post by rexwine » Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:50 am

...also, although I went ahead and made my own string maps, but since the dynamics didn't work, I tried Andre's to see if they would. They wouldn't either, but they are the ones loaded currently.

The expression parts work.

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Re: EastWest Gold Expression maps?

Post by rexwine » Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:52 am

So unless something else is wrong, I assume it's the bug you mentioned?

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Re: EastWest Gold Expression maps?

Post by PaulWalmsley » Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:59 am

I don't have EW, but I found that if I exported the file to MIDI (which keeps the controllers and keyswitches) and open in Cubase then I can see the massive change in dynamics in bars 40 and 46, which is mapped to CC1 (ie modwheel):
dynamics.jpg
(16.4 KiB) Not downloaded yet
Image
So is it the case that CC1 is definitely used for dynamics in that patch?
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Re: EastWest Gold Expression maps?

Post by rexwine » Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:04 pm

PaulWalmsley wrote:
Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:59 am
I don't have EW, but I found that if I exported the file to MIDI (which keeps the controllers and keyswitches) and open in Cubase then I can see the massive change in dynamics in bars 40 and 46, which is mapped to CC1 (ie modwheel):

dynamics.jpg
Image
So is it the case that CC1 is definitely used for dynamics in that patch?
CC1 (modulation) and CC11 (expression) as I understand it. But I'm not sure what you want to know. All I know, is Dorico notation dynamics pppp, ppp, pp, p, f , ff, fff, ffff etc., has no apparent effect. Same as Andre' noted in his first post. Otherwise they work AFAICT. (at least once I input the right numbers : )

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Re: EastWest Gold Expression maps?

Post by PaulWalmsley » Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:40 pm

I don't know what to suggest as I don't have EW and I don't know which controllers they use. However I can see from your file that Dorico is outputting CC1 that are very low for the pppp and very high for the fffff, which is as I would expect. If that is having no effect on your version of EW then that suggests that the EW patch doesn't actually use CC1 for dynamics.
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Re: EastWest Gold Expression maps?

Post by rexwine » Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:04 pm

PaulWalmsley wrote:
Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:40 pm
I don't know what to suggest as I don't have EW and I don't know which controllers they use. However I can see from your file that Dorico is outputting CC1 that are very low for the pppp and very high for the fffff, which is as I would expect. If that is having no effect on your version of EW then that suggests that the EW patch doesn't actually use CC1 for dynamics.
I know you can customize their keyswitch maps? Would that make any difference?

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Re: EastWest Gold Expression maps?

Post by PaulWalmsley » Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:09 pm

I wouldn't think so - keyswitches are for switching between layers in the patch. You need to find out which controller each patch uses for dynamics and set the CC in the expression map to match it.
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