Clef change splitting double repeat

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wconable
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Clef change splitting double repeat

Post by wconable » Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:43 am

I would like to have this clef change appear after the double repeat bar; but Dorico wants to split the repeat like this:
Screenshot 2017-07-16 22.39.01.png
(12.36 KiB) Not downloaded yet
Probably I don't know what I'm doing, but I really would prefer the clef change to happen inside the bar after the repeat. Is there a way to accomplish this?

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Daniel at Steinberg
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Re: Clef change splitting double repeat

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:10 am

Unfortunately at the moment there is no way to force this clef to appear after the barline. What Dorico does is logically correct, but not everybody likes it! We will hopefully be able to introduce a means of forcing a clef to appear after the barline in the future, but I'm not sure when that will be.

LeifG
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Re: Clef change splitting double repeat

Post by LeifG » Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:49 pm

I'm not around Dorico right now, but I suppose if you really want to, you could hide the clef, move the first notes after the clef change a little to the right and add a C-clef glyph where you want it. Hopefully it only occurs a few times in your score...

Rob Tuley
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Re: Clef change splitting double repeat

Post by Rob Tuley » Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:28 pm

If you don't care about playback, you can attach the clef to the second note after the repeat, and then move it past the first note with the Horizontal Spacing option in engrave mode - but you have to write the first note at the "wrong" pitch to make it look correct.

LeifG
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Re: Clef change splitting double repeat

Post by LeifG » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:10 pm

Rob Tuley wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:28 pm
If you don't care about playback, you can attach the clef to the second note after the repeat, and then move it past the first note with the Horizontal Spacing option in engrave mode - but you have to write the first note at the "wrong" pitch to make it look correct.
Undoubtedly simpler than my suggestion!

CarloGesualdo
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Re: Clef change splitting double repeat

Post by CarloGesualdo » Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:52 am

This behaviour is in no ways logically correct. Observe the following. The main argument against such practice is the ambiguity of creating a space that could be construed to be a measure when none exists.
See attached orchestral reduction exhibiting the problem.
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Split double repeats.JPG
Note bottom grand staff. Advisory clef should be on the right of the repeats.
(17.67 KiB) Not downloaded yet

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Daniel at Steinberg
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Re: Clef change splitting double repeat

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:35 pm

Well, does the treble clef apply to the material that you are jumping back to after following the end repeat barline, or to the music following the start repeat barline...?

CarloGesualdo
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Re: Clef change splitting double repeat

Post by CarloGesualdo » Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:54 am

It applies to the music after the repeat.

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Re: Clef change splitting double repeat

Post by CarloGesualdo » Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:56 am

The clef can only be located two notes to the right of the repeat sign thus altering those two notes to the position of the previous clef and there doesn't appear to be a fudge factor by using a non-existent horizontal displacement of the clef and fudging the notes. That will not correctly play.

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Daniel at Steinberg
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Re: Clef change splitting double repeat

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:19 am

Right, that's my point: the clef applies to the music following the end repeat, so it is correct for it to be shown on the right-hand side of the end repeat barline.

ReRei
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Re: Clef change splitting double repeat

Post by ReRei » Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:41 am

Does the attached example of Carlo looks good and correct for you?
I understand Carlos point when I look at the screenshot.

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Daniel at Steinberg
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Re: Clef change splitting double repeat

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:34 pm

Yes, Rene, it does look correct to me.

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Re: Clef change splitting double repeat

Post by ReRei » Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:23 pm

In this case the opinions differ.
I don't like the space in between either. I have never seen that so far in a full score before.
But of course I have not seen all scores existing.
Last edited by ReRei on Sun Sep 10, 2017 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

fkretlow
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Re: Clef change splitting double repeat

Post by fkretlow » Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:57 pm

For what it's worth, Daniel, I agree that the current solution is logically correct. I think, however, that in this case many of us would sacrifice logical correctness for the sake of an economic and unobtrusive notation. Imagine a page of a score for full orchestra, cut in half by two heavy repeat barlines with an empty space in between just because, say, the cello group happens to go back from tenor to bass clef at the beginning of the second repeat section. I have never seen such a thing before Dorico. It would dramatically interrupt the 'visual flow' of the music and draw way too much attention to a simple clef change in my opinion. I agree with Carlo and Rene here. I'd much appreciate a means to force the clef to appear after the barline and I'm glad that you're considering it.
Florian

Claude Lapalme
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Re: Clef change splitting double repeat

Post by Claude Lapalme » Sun Sep 10, 2017 3:07 pm

Same here - I brought this out last December yet. It also applies to meter changes at repeat bars. The only negative comment I received so fat from a client regarding Dorico's output was precisely about that; though to be fair, the reaction was more one of puzzlement (my clients having been universally pleased with the results otherwise). At any rate, the team is well aware that many of us are unhappy about this. I'm quite certain we have been heard!
Claude Lapalme - Conductor, Arranger, Orchestrator
Music Director @ Red Deer Symphony Orchestra
Artistic Director @ Rosa Barocca

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