Licensing and the Survey

Discussions about our next-generation scoring application, Dorico.
rexwine
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Re: Licensing and the Survey

Post by rexwine » Sat Jul 22, 2017 4:06 am

Romanos401 wrote:
Sat Jul 22, 2017 1:47 am
If it was encrypted then other legitimate copies of Dorico wouldn't be able to open the file.
That's the idea actually. If you wanted to send a file to another user, it would have to be decrypted from the main license first. But once decrypted, it would be no different that regular file. And that is the same thing anyone with a license can do now. It's just that there would be a hurdle of one licensed machine, instead of say 5 or 10 or more.

Furthermore, if you could just work on something from a functional but not "activated" copy and then just go to the "legitimate" license to print it out, then what would stop say, a poor music lab, from purchasing a single license for the main computer and then having everyone else use the "shadow" copies (to use your term) and then just print their scores from the lab computer? I just don't think that would work.
Sure. And there are more ways to ensure copy protection if this is the case. One way is to provide a reasonable limit to shadow copies. If your original license only allows two shadow copies (which is fairly reasonable for what one user would normally want) then then it is not going to be a problem with a factory system. In fact, they could even require shadow copies to have separate registration codes before they could work.

The whole problem with any system is usually not the average user defeating the software protections, but the usual people decompiling, reverse engineering, crackers and what have you.

Any protection design is really for the masses, not the people determined and capable to defeat protections.

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Re: Licensing and the Survey

Post by ersteller » Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:17 am

misohoza wrote:
Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:33 pm
ersteller wrote:
Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:58 pm
My question is: can one without problems use this reactivation (between the same two computers, without reinstalling Dorico every time!) two or three times every week, until Steinberg defines a new protection schema?
I wouldn't do that on a weekly basis. There is a limit on how many times a given license can be reactivated.
Thanks, this was exactly my fear...
Francesco

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Re: Licensing and the Survey

Post by bnz » Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:53 am

Just a me too. I won't buy Dorico with the current licensing scheme. I need at least two computers - and the laptop needs to be dongle free.

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Re: Licensing and the Survey

Post by wrhoden2010 » Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:32 pm

As the new school year begins, I re-evaluated if I want to "renew" Sibelius support. I've been using Sibelius since college (back when it was v4) I do a lot of arrangements for my guitar classes. It is extremely convenient to have it installed at home and at school. Simplifies everything.

I used to do it all at home, export in PDF form, and print it off at school. If there was a mistake, I'd have to fix it at home. Or a kid would need more copies, and I'd have to find the PDF, find the right pages, and print it off. It got so bad, I began using MuseScore almost exclusively so I could edit at school. That is until I figured out that Sibelius could be installed on two computers.

Now I can write, edit, and especially print in a consistent manner. I doesn't make sense to switch to Dorico, if I have to export to musicXML and re-edit. I'd lose all the Dorico beauty, and still have to clean up the XML file. Carrying a dongle is a possibility, but being a teacher with 200 or so 11-13 yr old students, the less I have to remember on a daily basis the better.

While I think the cross-grade education price is amazing, I keep stopping short of buying the software because of this licensing issue. I think it is a very good piece of software, and will continue to improve. Hopefully, Steinberg will at least make its education licensing a little bit more flexible.

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MarkSealey
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Re: Licensing and the Survey

Post by MarkSealey » Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:47 am

--
Mark Sealey
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Rob Tuley
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Re: Licensing and the Survey

Post by Rob Tuley » Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:34 am

Until Dorico has guitar tab notation, making a decision based on the licensing system, as a guitar teacher, may be premature anyway!

Also, it seems a bit odd that if you are teaching in a school, you have to pay for the software you need yourself, rather than it coming out of the school's budget - but maybe that's just capitalism in operation...

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Re: Licensing and the Survey

Post by Puma0382 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:01 am

wrhoden2010 wrote:
Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:32 pm
As the new school year begins, I re-evaluated if I want to "renew" Sibelius support. I've been using Sibelius since college (back when it was v4) I do a lot of arrangements for my guitar classes. It is extremely convenient to have it installed at home and at school. Simplifies everything.

I used to do it all at home, export in PDF form, and print it off at school. If there was a mistake, I'd have to fix it at home. Or a kid would need more copies, and I'd have to find the PDF, find the right pages, and print it off. It got so bad, I began using MuseScore almost exclusively so I could edit at school. That is until I figured out that Sibelius could be installed on two computers.

Now I can write, edit, and especially print in a consistent manner. I doesn't make sense to switch to Dorico, if I have to export to musicXML and re-edit. I'd lose all the Dorico beauty, and still have to clean up the XML file. Carrying a dongle is a possibility, but being a teacher with 200 or so 11-13 yr old students, the less I have to remember on a daily basis the better.

While I think the cross-grade education price is amazing, I keep stopping short of buying the software because of this licensing issue. I think it is a very good piece of software, and will continue to improve. Hopefully, Steinberg will at least make its education licensing a little bit more flexible.
If its just guitar tuition that you and your classes focus on, you may have a look at Guitar Pro 7 - a great educational software tool, it says, from their website...
Home page:- https://www.guitar-pro.com/en/index.php?pg=home
Education page:- https://education.guitar-pro.com/en

Even for the non-education sector, a very reasonable price, multiple-install licensing (up to 5 computers.!) and plenty of features/support resources online...

(NB:- I am not affiliated in any way)

No doubt there are other similar packages too; forgive me if you've already investigated.

Cheers,
Puma
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Re: Licensing and the Survey

Post by wrhoden2010 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:50 pm

MarkSealey wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:47 am
wrhoden2010, might these pages be of any help? If not, just ignore:
Thank you for the links.

I think Steinberg's (and many other manufactures') education discounts are very very generous. It is just inconvenient to have to use the USB stick between school and home. There are so many different applications that need to be addressed with licensing, so I understand why there is no perfect licensing situation that can make everybody happy.
Rob Tuley wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:34 am
Until Dorico has guitar tab notation, making a decision based on the licensing system, as a guitar teacher, may be premature anyway!

Also, it seems a bit odd that if you are teaching in a school, you have to pay for the software you need yourself, rather than it coming out of the school's budget - but maybe that's just capitalism in operation...
Good point. I do not usually use tabs though. It's more of a classical guitar orchestra class. I thought it strange when I arrived, but it is the main way this district does guitar.

I could get my school to pay for it, but I want the software to travel with me if I transfer schools ever. That way, the school computers are not loaded with ancient versions of Finale. Or, if the district upgrades computers, I can deactivate it on my old and reinstall on the new. Saves the taxpayer money, keeps the IT situation easy, and I get to keep using the software I like.
Puma0382 wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:01 am

If its just guitar tuition that you and your classes focus on, you may have a look at Guitar Pro 7 - a great educational software tool, it says, from their website...
Home page:- https://www.guitar-pro.com/en/index.php?pg=home
Education page:- https://education.guitar-pro.com/en

Even for the non-education sector, a very reasonable price, multiple-install licensing (up to 5 computers.!) and plenty of features/support resources online...

(NB:- I am not affiliated in any way)

No doubt there are other similar packages too; forgive me if you've already investigated.

Cheers,
Puma
Thanks Puma!

That is a pretty slick piece of software. I'll have to look into it further.

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Re: Licensing and the Survey

Post by Estigy » Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:06 am

Thousands of users are happily using Dorico with this system,
I bet there are no 100 users that really "happily" use their dongle and could not be even more happy if they would not need it any more...
This is just marketing language.

I am waiting for the next big update that includes unpitched percussion, because that is the last thing the prevents me from using Dorico to write my music. Well, that and the licensing mechanism. The USB dongle is no option for me, nor is paying twice.

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k_b
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Re: Licensing and the Survey

Post by k_b » Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:08 pm

wrhoden2010 wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:50 pm
I could get my school to pay for it, but I want the software to travel with me if I transfer schools ever. That way, the school computers are not loaded with ancient versions of Finale. Or, if the district upgrades computers, I can deactivate it on my old and reinstall on the new. Saves the taxpayer money, keeps the IT situation easy, and I get to keep using the software I like.
wrhoden, I don’t understand: if the school pays for the software, it is obviously theirs.
Why would you want the software to travel with you, when you change to another school?

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Re: Licensing and the Survey

Post by Bollen » Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:51 pm

Estigy wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:06 am
I bet there are no 100 users that really "happily" use their dongle and could not be even more happy if they would not need it any more...
This is just marketing language.
I wholeheartedly agree, I am one of those "happy" (or rather non-issue) dongle users when it comes to my DAW and sample libraries, because they need a powerful desktop. This is what Steinberg is not understanding, a notation software is a different animal altogether, it is used differently. In my case I need to take it to rehearsals daily (and on the road) on a tablet with only one port.

I just wished they had added the dongle issue to their survey, so that they could get an accurate number of users not buying the software because of this.

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Re: Licensing and the Survey

Post by Rob Tuley » Wed Aug 09, 2017 5:54 pm

Bollen wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:51 pm
I just wished they had added the dongle issue to their survey, so that they could get an accurate number of users not buying the software because of this.
But, how many people who "don't buy software because they hate dongles" would get as far as seeing the survey at all, and how many of those would spend time completing it?

You have to be careful when using "statistics" and "accurate" in the same sentence ;)

There's a well known example of this mistake dating from WWII - somebody decided to commission a big survey of aircraft that had been shot at, to find which parts should be protected most. Unfortunately they "forgot" that the number of aircraft included in the survey which had actually been shot down in enemy territory was - ZERO, for the obvious reason. All the planes where they carefully counted all the bullet holes had survived anyway! Luckily, somebody did notice that mistake before they started on completely useless redesigns of the planes...

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Re: Licensing and the Survey

Post by Bollen » Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:03 pm

Ha! Funny anecdote...

The survey was sent because I tried the demo, the closest possible response I could give as to why I wasn't buying it was because "it was too expensive", but that is only in the context of the licensing issue which would require me to buy two. Hence why I started this thread... To call attention to the fact that the survey is not giving them accurate information. Presumably surveys are sent out to gather information and presumably some sample of the users answer them. Why not help them to get it right?

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Re: Licensing and the Survey

Post by Rob Tuley » Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:27 pm

I'm sure your motivation was for a good reason, but I'm just pointing out that it's not so easy to get good information! Even if Steinberg sends the survey to everyone who downloads the trial and doesn't buy the product, the response rate is important. If 95% of people reply to the survey, the information is worth looking at, but if only 5% reply, probably not - unless you think changing the questions would improve the response rate, of course. (And for some surveys, getting as few as one response for every 50 requests is "normal.")

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Re: Licensing and the Survey

Post by wrhoden2010 » Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:09 am

k_b wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:08 pm

wrhoden, I don’t understand: if the school pays for the software, it is obviously theirs.
Why would you want the software to travel with you, when you change to another school?
For awhile I was actually at two schools at the same time. One school could afford it, but the other couldn't. How each school operates is different in the USA. So if it is licensed to me as the teacher, it becomes less of a headache trying to get each individual school to buy it for me. I'm not talking classroom labs, just notation software for me to make arrangements for my classes. If it were a lab, of course I would ask the school to buy enough licenses for each machine.

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Re: Licensing and the Survey

Post by david-p » Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:26 am

Rather than start a new thead, I think it is worth pointing out here how irritating the dongle is, due to its pulsing red LED. What is the purpose of this pulsing? No other dongles that I have do this and it is particularly difficult to ignore when it is stuck in the side of a laptop -- not only for the user, but for others close by who may be able to see it, for instance, in a train or an aeroplane or airport, where people commonly try to catch up with work.

I do not say this to criticise the Dorico developers, as it is clearly due to a Steinberg corporate decision and probably annoys Daniel's team just as much as it does me; but it is another aspect of the licensing situation that merits a re-evaluation of the needs of customers, rather than Steinberg's need to protect its intellectual property.

On the question of to dongle or not to dongle, I remember that Magix used to rely on one to protect Samplitude. This has now been abandoned in favour of multiple registrations; but during the time when there was an obligatory dongle for the full program, they made available very cheaply a dongle-less version (Samplitude SE) which was restricted to performing basic tasks, such as one might want to do while on the move. I do not know what Dorico functions would come into this category, but such an option might satisfy those who object to the dongle and also be a way of persuading new users of the value of the full program.

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Daniel at Steinberg
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Re: Licensing and the Survey

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:53 am

The pulsing of the LED is to show when code is being executed on the USB-eLicenser, as far as I know.

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Re: Licensing and the Survey

Post by Derrek » Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:39 pm

May I suggest affixing a narrow strip of opaque tape if the diode in the dongle is causing major disruptions at home or in the airport.
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Re: Licensing and the Survey

Post by david-p » Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:15 pm

Daniel at Steinberg wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:53 am
The pulsing of the LED is to show when code is being executed on the USB-eLicenser, as far as I know.
Are you referring to the constant continuous 4 second cycle from dim to brighter and back? This happens as soon as I plug the dongle in, without runnng Dorico.

It flashes brighter and faster when I open Dorico and then resumes its 4 second cycles. Same again when I open a score.
But these addtional flashes only happen when I am connected to tne Internet. Is the dongle calling home when it does this?

David
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Sibelius 7 user from way back when, and can still use a pen and m.s. paper.
Editor of orchestral and keyboard (early music) scores and occasional composer.
Organ, harpsichord, conductor, audio producer and engineer.
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Daniel at Steinberg
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Re: Licensing and the Survey

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:49 pm

No, the USB-eLicenser doesn't call home.

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Re: Licensing and the Survey

Post by david-p » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:27 am

Thanks, Daniel!

A more scientific investigation reveals that the brief dongle flashes that occur when opening or closing Dorico or a Dorico file are the same whether the computer is connected from the Internet or not. Quite why the background 4 second pulse is necessary remains a mystery.

David
David Pickett, Vienna, Austria
Sibelius 7 user from way back when, and can still use a pen and m.s. paper.
Editor of orchestral and keyboard (early music) scores and occasional composer.
Organ, harpsichord, conductor, audio producer and engineer.
http://www.fugato.com/pickett

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Re: Licensing and the Survey

Post by ShikiSuen » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:51 am

david-p wrote:
Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:27 am
Thanks, Daniel!

A more scientific investigation reveals that the brief dongle flashes that occur when opening or closing Dorico or a Dorico file are the same whether the computer is connected from the Internet or not. Quite why the background 4 second pulse is necessary remains a mystery.

David
AFAIK, If eLc disconnected when Cubase / Nuendo is open, Cubase / Nuendo will show error notice after several seconds.
This made me suspect that the 4 second pulse is to check whether the eLc is keeping on being plugged in.
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