Meter for grouping 3/2 correctly

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LAE
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Meter for grouping 3/2 correctly

Post by LAE » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:40 am

Hello,

I am notating some renaissance style music in 3/2 where the rhythm grouping is constantly changing between 2+2+2 and 3+3.
The notation [ half, quarter, quartertiedtoquarter, quarter ] should never occur. I have tried to find a setting in the notation options but none of them seems to cover this. Is there some other trick I could use, like notating the meter differently?

For now I have resorted to forcing the durations.

Thanks
LAE
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fkretlow
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Re: Meter for grouping 3/2 correctly

Post by fkretlow » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:27 am

To be honest, I don't quite understand why Dorico breaks the half note in the lower bar in your image but not in the upper bar. Replace the two eighth notes with a quarter and all is fine.
Anyway, I don't see a global solution either. Notating the meter differently would probably mess up all the 2+2+2 bars. Of course you could enter a local (shift-M and alt-enter) [3+3]/4 signature into the offending bars and hide it – perhaps that would be more the 'Dorico way'. But is that more convenient than force duration?
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Claude Lapalme
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Re: Meter for grouping 3/2 correctly

Post by Claude Lapalme » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:40 pm

It can be more convenient because the time signature signposts can be copied and pasted, speeding the work considerably in most cases.
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Cor anglais 16
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Re: Meter for grouping 3/2 correctly

Post by Cor anglais 16 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:56 pm

To be honest, I don't quite understand why Dorico breaks the half note in the lower bar in your image but not in the upper bar. Replace the two eighth notes with a quarter and all is fine.
Yes, this is a tendency I have noticed as well. The notation options for rhythmic grouping of half notes don't seem to apply correctly when there are eighth notes around.

Also, shouldn't the options for "Quarter note (crotchet) denominator time signatures with half bars" apply to 4/2 as well? Renaissance polyphony tends to be in 4/2, and getting the half notes to group correctly and the eighth notes to beam correctly requires a lot of manual fiddling.

LAE
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Re: Meter for grouping 3/2 correctly

Post by LAE » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:53 pm

To be honest, in this specific case I cannot see the advantages of the "Dorico approach". In other music, yes.
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fkretlow
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Re: Meter for grouping 3/2 correctly

Post by fkretlow » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:36 pm

Claude Lapalme wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:40 pm
It can be more convenient because the time signature signposts can be copied and pasted, speeding the work considerably in most cases.
Hmm. Good idea! Thanks, Claude! :)
Florian

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Daniel at Steinberg
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Re: Meter for grouping 3/2 correctly

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:34 am

fkretlow wrote:To be honest, I don't quite understand why Dorico breaks the half note in the lower bar in your image but not in the upper bar. Replace the two eighth notes with a quarter and all is fine.
The reason is that Dorico's detection of syncopated patterns expects the "short" notes of a short-long-long-etc.-short pattern to be a single note or rest of the "short" duration; notes or rests adding up to the "short" duration (such as a pair of eighths instead of a quarter) break the pattern.

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Stephen Taylor
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Re: Meter for grouping 3/2 correctly

Post by Stephen Taylor » Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:00 pm

Thanks Daniel - that is very interesting to know, I'm always curious what Dorico is up to under the hood. If possible, I'd like to request that the algorithm (eventually) change to accept these subdivisions; I think I've run into similar situations from time to time.
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Daniel at Steinberg
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Re: Meter for grouping 3/2 correctly

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:27 pm

Yes, I agree that in the fullness of time it would be ideal to handle these kinds of patterns more automatically, though it does greatly enhance the likelihood of false positives producing peculiar results under other similar circumstances, of course!

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