something I "Write" sometime effects only in the layout I'm editing.

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kenjioh
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something I "Write" sometime effects only in the layout I'm editing.

Post by kenjioh » Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:19 am

More specifically, hairpin styles don't reflect in other layouts. I have an opinion.

I think the confusion comes from the fact that hairpin style property is accessible in both Write and Engrave modes. ("type" and "gradual type" property as well)
I understand that, with the Dorico's very basic concept, something you "Write" effects in all layouts (globally). Something you "Engrave" effects only in the layout you're engraving (locally).

IMO, different hairpin styles would indicate musically different things. not just different appearance, so I think this property more naturally belongs to Write mode, and choice/change of this property should be reflected in all the layouts.

I know the current way enables us to have different values of the properties in each layout. But we would want different value only in very rare cases. We need a way to specify only when the choice/change is local (only in specific layout). Maybe "layout specific property" switch on the left to show the "Write-mode properties" in Engrave mode is a logical way? Anyway, I hope changing this kind of properties will effect in all the layouts since it is different not just in appearance, but also in meaning musically. Manually changing the same property throughout all the layouts that contain the object is not very elegant... :/

I think this type of confusion is not only with hairpins but also with other kinds of objects. Lots of properties are accessible in both Write and Engrave modes. I guess it should be about the balance between practicality and simplicity/logicality. I'm optimistic and hoping these confusions will be cleared up by the clever team with the simple/logical and elegant concept of Dorico.

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Daniel at Steinberg
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Re: something I "Write" sometime effects only in the layout I'm editing.

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:37 am

It's not quite the case that properties you set in Write mode affect all layouts and properties you set in Engrave mode affect only the layout you're looking at: unfortunately the truth is a bit more complicated than that. All properties you set in Write mode either affect all layouts or affect only the current layout, but there's no way to tell which is which in the user interface, which is certainly a problem. Properties that only appear in Engrave mode typically affect only the current frame chain within the current layout, though again there could be a few exceptions there, and it's impossible to tell which is which.

Our plan, for what it's worth, is to make it possible to copy the properties that an item has in one layout to other layouts, e.g. to copy all an item's properties to all other part layouts, or to all other full or custom score layouts.

If we can come up with a good way of showing the scope of individual properties in the Properties panel, then we will certainly think about that as well, but the UI for that panel is already pretty busy, and for reasons of maintaining accessibility we don't want to employ things like colour as the means of disambiguating the different possible scopes for properties.

Like every part of the application, we certainly consider this to be still a work in progress.

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kenjioh
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Re: something I "Write" sometime effects only in the layout I'm editing.

Post by kenjioh » Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:07 pm

Thank you for the detailed explanation. Copying all the properties to specific layout sounds very convenient without making UI more complicated!
I kind of knew it was not that simple (global/local effect) as I noticed lots of properties are shown in both modes. What I meant was that with the fundamental concept of Write mode and Engrave mode, properties could be categorized in either Write mode kind of property or Engrave mode kind of property. So Properties panel in Write mode and Engrave mode could be logically separated. I thought that would make it clear and we wouldn't have the "no way to tell which is which" problem. = more intuitive?

In other words, I thought it was a bit illogical to see some properties in Write mode that don't affect other layouts. It would be actually even scary and worrisome if something I do in Engrave mode changes something in other layouts unknowingly. I'd prefer more logical: Write mode shows only all-layout properties, Engrave mode shows only layout-specific properties, with fewer exceptions as possible.

My idea of UI is to completely separate properties into Write(all layout) and Engrave(layout specific) and to add a switch that looks like "Frames" on the left in Engrave mode, says maybe "change in all layouts" or something. With this switch on, changes affect in all layouts. (for offsets, change of value instead of absolute value) I would keep this switch on all time. :) like hairpin styles, position above/below etc. we want to sync values between layouts for most of the properties most of the time. Even with the functionality of copy properties, you would still need to do property copying object by object. But you don't need to do that with this switch. Just need an option to inherit layout-specific property values from some layout when creating a new layout.

Looking forward to seeing you guys come up with a clever solution around Properties panel! as Dorico IS a cluster of clever solutions! :D

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Re: something I "Write" sometime effects only in the layout I'm editing.

Post by Derrek » Tue Oct 10, 2017 4:40 pm

Daniel,
Could one use a superscript beside a property name in the Properties Panel to indicate whether it affects Score Layouts, Parts Layouts, Current Layout, or All Layouts?
Dorico 1.1.10, Finale (v25.4), GPO, JABB3, GWI
Windows 7 (also Mac Sierra as alternate)
US English Keyboard

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Re: something I "Write" sometime effects only in the layout I'm editing.

Post by MarcLarcher » Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:52 pm

Derrek, I’m not sure we agree on WHAT you call superscript. At least it does not correspond to what LaTeX calls supercript :-)
OS X 10.11.6, macbook pro retina Late 2013
Opera singer (lyric tenor), photographer, sound engineer, XeLaTeX user and a sometimes music engraver
French is my native language

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Re: something I "Write" sometime effects only in the layout I'm editing.

Post by Derrek » Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:52 pm

I'm thinking of a small letter raised above the baseline of the name of the property (perhaps on its left) that would indicate how far reaching the effects of the property would extend.
Dorico 1.1.10, Finale (v25.4), GPO, JABB3, GWI
Windows 7 (also Mac Sierra as alternate)
US English Keyboard

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MarcLarcher
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Re: something I "Write" sometime effects only in the layout I'm editing.

Post by MarcLarcher » Wed Oct 11, 2017 5:50 pm

Ok! Great ^^ and yes, we agree on superscript!
OS X 10.11.6, macbook pro retina Late 2013
Opera singer (lyric tenor), photographer, sound engineer, XeLaTeX user and a sometimes music engraver
French is my native language

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