Guitar TAB and Chord diagrams

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Eddo
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Re: Guitar TAB and Chord diagrams

Post by Eddo »

@rschletty
@th3ben:

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Daniel at Steinberg
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Re: Guitar TAB and Chord diagrams

Post by Daniel at Steinberg »

To be clear: we have not announced anything about the timescale for a Dorico "3" or what features it might contain, so this is just Eddo's own speculation.

We know how important guitar notation is, but we are also committed to doing it properly, and so at this stage we cannot provide a specific estimate for when you will see it.

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aleos
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Re: Guitar TAB and Chord diagrams

Post by aleos »

rschletty wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:46 pm
I need guitar chord diagrams now. I am trying to make a clean break from Sibelius to Dorico. Together with my associates André van Haren and Anthony Moran, we are publishing original hymns and psalms at insong.org and topcatholicsong.com. We are using both standard guitar chords and solfege (do-re-mi) chords. Please make guitar chord diagrams a top "numero uno" priority. You have many praise and worship musicians out here in the world awaiting.
I'm so pleased now with Dorico, after a year of semi-frustration, and my annoying complaining, now I'm in love. Making beautiful scores in it. Well done to the team. Thank you.

I as well still need to have Sibelius on my desk, and cant switch fully to Dorico because of the chord diagram option ( I think it's the final holdout!).
For educational purposes, which I write alot of, it is essential. Also, when the chord diagram boxes come in, it would be great if they wouldn't be limited to one finger per string, as I think Sibelius did in an early release. These boxes are used by us guitarists not only for chords, but for scale positions as well. It is essential that we can put multiple fingerings in these boxes, on the same string.
Another, less essential feature, but one that would surely grab a small but dedicated slice of the market, is the option for different symbols on the strings. The late, great guitarist and teacher, Ted Greene, used to use different symbols in his chord charts to indicate a possible different fingering, or a melodic move inside a harmonic context. Usually it was 'o' and 'x' that he would add in, to indicate the next place to put your finger.
He usually wrote it out by hand, but here is someone's transcription of it in notation software: https://www.tedgreene.com/images/lesson ... -12-18.pdf
Doesn't necessarily need to be Xs and Os, but some symbols of showing where to put the finger next. numbers would also be great, but might get confusing as it might get mixed up with fingering and/or scale degree or chord tone.

Thanks for everything!
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Daniel at Steinberg
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Re: Guitar TAB and Chord diagrams

Post by Daniel at Steinberg »

Thanks for these examples of chord diagrams with additional symbols to show alternative fingerings. We'll bear this in mind!

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Re: Guitar TAB and Chord diagrams

Post by johnland82 »

Hello folks!

Is there an update on exactly when tablature will be available in Dorico? I give private music lessons, and about half of my students play guitar and bass. I'm currently using Noteflight, Guitar Pro and Overture 5 (which feels like a beta test). With tablature and chord diagrams, I'd switch to Dorico without a second thought!

Thank you!

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pianoleo
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Re: Guitar TAB and Chord diagrams

Post by pianoleo »

It won't be before v3, and there's no specific release date for v3 (2.2.10 only came out 48 hours ago). Even then, no promises have been made re: v3.0.
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Re: Guitar TAB and Chord diagrams

Post by Puma0382 »

johnland82 wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:35 am
I'm currently using Noteflight, Guitar Pro and Overture 5 (which feels like a beta test). With tablature and chord diagrams, I'd switch to Dorico without a second thought!

Thank you!
I'm only a hobbyist guitarist but I'd like to add, whether it will be considered to provide support for import of native Guitar Pro project files, like MuseScore does...? Just curious...
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Re: Guitar TAB and Chord diagrams

Post by Rob Tuley »

The Guitar Pro file format is published. On the basis of a quick look, it's organized in a similar way to MusicXML.

But apparently Guitar Pro 5 has MusicXML output as well, which makes writing a converter app rather pointless (unless the Guitar Pro XML export is buggy - I don't know anything about the software)

In any case, apparently there already is a free converter from Guitar Pro to MusicXML - it's called MuseScore!

In the longer term, when the Dorico plugin capability gets up and running, this sort of file importer would probably be a good non-trivial use for it. If you put this sort of function directly into an application, you could get "locked in" to keeping Dorico updates in step with Guitar Pro updates or losing the functionality when the two get out of sync with each other, whereas plugins can be updated on their own separate release schedule.

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Re: Guitar TAB and Chord diagrams

Post by Puma0382 »

Rob Tuley wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:16 pm
The Guitar Pro file format is published. On the basis of a quick look, it's organized in a similar way to MusicXML.

But apparently Guitar Pro 5 has MusicXML output as well, which makes writing a converter app rather pointless (unless the Guitar Pro XML export is buggy - I don't know anything about the software)

In any case, apparently there already is a free converter from Guitar Pro to MusicXML - it's called MuseScore!

In the longer term, when the Dorico plugin capability gets up and running, this sort of file importer would probably be a good non-trivial use for it. If you put this sort of function directly into an application, you could get "locked in" to keeping Dorico updates in step with Guitar Pro updates or losing the functionality when the two get out of sync with each other, whereas plugins can be updated on their own separate release schedule.
Ok - thanks Rob. Interesting; hadn't thought of it like that (Dorico getting 'locked in' etc...).

Will keep an occasional eye on how things progress here.

Cheers,
Bob
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Daniel at Steinberg
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Re: Guitar TAB and Chord diagrams

Post by Daniel at Steinberg »

As we've said on a number of occasions, guitar notation is one of our top development priorities right at the moment, and we are actively working on it. I can't make promises about future versions of the software because software development is hard(TM) and it's best not to make public statements about things until they're basically implemented. However, in as much as we can be sure about what the next major version of Dorico will contain, we can be sure that it will contain guitar tab, guitar chord diagrams, and more features for classical guitar notation. I don't anticipate that we will be able to write a Guitar Pro file importer for the next version, but if there's sufficient demand for it (and certainly there are plenty of GP files out there) then I wouldn't rule it out for the future.

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Re: Guitar TAB and Chord diagrams

Post by Derrek »

Since guitar TAB has bubbled up again, I have a request:

I am not a guitar player and have had to do my first translation of a note-based guitar part to TAB notation. I used Finale to more or less "automate" this and noticed a feature Finale did not have that I thought I'd request if the Dorico Team can include it when you implement TAB notation in Dorico.

I find for some techniques (if I am not mistaken) such as hammer-on's both notes need to be on the same string. When these notes are translated to TAB in Finale they may end up on different strings. So would it be possible in Dorico to have a means to "flip" a note from one string to another and have the program correctly translate the fret number to produce the original pitch?

I hope I have made myself clear. Many thanks for whatever you can do.
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Re: Guitar TAB and Chord diagrams

Post by Sadhaka »

Hey Derrek,

In addition to your suggestion, hammer-ons and pull-offs are ascending and descending slurs respectively. It is generally applicable and technically comfortable to perform a slur of a P4 in the first position (a bit of a stretch) and larger intervals in higher positions. Large slurs are less common but they are achievable...

Having said all of that, if the notation is inputted correctly, the Dorico team could write a law that ‘notes marked with a slur remain on the same string when transcribed to TAB’.

This is simplifying things a bit as sometimes composers write slurred intervals that are impossible to play due to size or the demands of other voices in the passage.

Another challenge for transcribing to TAB is how intelligently the software can determine the position to play the music in. Guitar notation can provide string and finger indications, and I will be interested to see whether the Dorico TAB transcription will a). be able to take existing fingering indications into account and b). Assume logical position selections based on the range of a passage.

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Re: Guitar TAB and Chord diagrams

Post by Sadhaka »

I guess that it is prudent to also add that it is uncommon to find fingering indications in the notation of rock music. This is where the transcription to TAB engine intelligence can really save a lot of time...

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Daniel at Steinberg
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Re: Guitar TAB and Chord diagrams

Post by Daniel at Steinberg »

Yes, Derrek, you need not worry: you will be able to move a note from one string to another, and Dorico will recalculate a valid fret number for you. However, because moving one note to another string will not automatically adjust the string for other notes sounding at the same time, you'll still have to take responsibility for making sure that the overall shape of the chord or texture is playable by a guitarist.

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Re: Guitar TAB and Chord diagrams

Post by Derrek »

Thanks.
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Re: Guitar TAB and Chord diagrams

Post by Eddo »

For teaching purposes it would be great to add dampening indications, which usually are not part of a text in a non-teaching environment. Michael Langer, a guitarist teaching at Vienna University, uses the piano pedal "asterisk" in his guitar methods (Play Guitar, DUX Verlag/Edition). Absolutely pragmatic.

I'm very curious to learn what the next version of Dorico will provide regarding guitar notation!
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L3B
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Re: Guitar TAB and Chord diagrams

Post by L3B »

Daniel said, "However, in as much as we can be sure about what the next major version of Dorico will contain, we can be sure that it will contain guitar tab, guitar chord diagrams, and more features for classical guitar notation."

I know you hate these kinds of questions, but I'll ask anyway: Is it safe to say that when Guitar TAB becomes available, that the other types of non-guitar TAB capabilities (that you and I discussed in Nashville) will be available in the same version where Guitar TAB first appears? Or do they likely come later?
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Re: Guitar TAB and Chord diagrams

Post by SeeWhat »

Electric guitar notation and tab
one thing that would really set Dorico definitely ahead in electric guitar notation ease, is having the pop-overs serve as an entry mean for all those "idiomatic phrasing snippets" that take so long to enter in S.
grace note bends; unison bends; prebends; prebends with grace note release; microtone bends; grace note slide-in, etc etc
those snippets can be found by dozens in any electric guitar solo and doing transcriptions into a notation program with the usual tools takes ages
Now just imagine once you have entered the regular pitches and rhythms
select the target note, open popup; grace note bend Whole; DONE
select the target note, open popup; unisson bend WholeHalf; DONE
select the target note, open popup; prebend Whole; DONE

you get the point
take any edited electric guitar transcription book, look at the solos, there will be hundreds of those "idiomatic phrasing snippets" and they are a pain to enter

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Daniel at Steinberg
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Re: Guitar TAB and Chord diagrams

Post by Daniel at Steinberg »

L3B wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:57 am
I know you hate these kinds of questions, but I'll ask anyway: Is it safe to say that when Guitar TAB becomes available, that the other types of non-guitar TAB capabilities (that you and I discussed in Nashville) will be available in the same version where Guitar TAB first appears? Or do they likely come later?
It's hard to say. Certainly the infrastructure we are building for tablature is general-purpose enough to encompass fretted instruments with non-chromatic fretboards (like dulcimers) and instruments where the strings start at certain frets (like banjos), and we hope to be able to have at least basic support for lute tablature, but the focus at the moment is definitely on good support for 6-string guitars and 4-string bass guitars. We'll see how far we get!

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Daniel at Steinberg
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Re: Guitar TAB and Chord diagrams

Post by Daniel at Steinberg »

SeeWhat wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:38 am
one thing that would really set Dorico definitely ahead in electric guitar notation ease, is having the pop-overs serve as an entry mean for all those "idiomatic phrasing snippets" that take so long to enter in S.
grace note bends; unison bends; prebends; prebends with grace note release; microtone bends; grace note slide-in, etc etc
We're certainly going to try to make it convenient to create these kinds of special guitar notations.

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Re: Guitar TAB and Chord diagrams

Post by tcreverb »

I assume Dorico will be able to understand which string is being played so that when inputting with a Fishman MIDI guitar or Artiphon Instrument 1 that send each string on different MIDI channels, the tablature will be correct?

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Daniel at Steinberg
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Re: Guitar TAB and Chord diagrams

Post by Daniel at Steinberg »

We're not sure about this at the moment. We hope to be able to support MIDI guitar input but it's not something we can definitively state will be included in the next release.

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Re: Guitar TAB and Chord diagrams

Post by tcreverb »

Thanks Daniel, hopefully not too long.

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Re: Guitar TAB and Chord diagrams

Post by ceastman »

Hii,
Just wondering if there is an updated release date for Dorico with Tabs pease? I'm costing up a new computer suite for the school I work in, to be installed in August and would love to use Dorico. Tab is a bit of a deal breaker for us though as lots of our students prefer to use it.
Thanks

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MarcLarcher
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Re: Guitar TAB and Chord diagrams

Post by MarcLarcher »

Dear Cestman,
There will be tab notation and everything for guitar in next update (I mean real update, not maintenance one), Dorico 3. It's going to be pretty big, or at least that's what we expect (and so far, the team has never failed to bring wonderful surprises). Stay tuned, it's supposed to come in the next months. I'd like to advise you to try and use the one month Dorico trial, as this marvellous app is also a complex one, and you will appreciate to start learning how to use it as early as possible.
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