Expression Maps

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John at Steinberg
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Expression Maps

Post by John at Steinberg » Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:13 pm

As I've been approached by a few people about expression maps, either wanting to create them or wanting to just use one, let's use this thread as a central place to gather information about where people are at so far.

If you are looking for an expression map for a sound library, please post in this thread.
If you have an expression map that you have created, or if you want one, please post in this thread.
If you have started an expression map, and would be willing to share what you have so far so that others can help finish it, please post in this thread.

Downloadable expression map(s):
  • GPO5.zip
    (418.06 KiB) Downloaded 593 times

Requests:
* Spitfire Symphonic Strings (John investigating using UACC)
* VSL (requested by various people)
* EastWest

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MarkSealey
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by MarkSealey » Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:10 pm

Thanks, John. Great idea!

Definitely interested in:
  1. (helping with) a comprehensive FAQ which covers the integration of Dorico with VIs in its widest senses… what, why, how, how to etc
  2. Vienna Symphonic Library… maybe adapting VSL's Cubase Expression Maps would be a good place to start
  3. Synthogy's Ivory II - especially when the long-awaited VST 3 version is released
  4. ways to help additionally showcase what Dorico can do with superior sounds when actual performance isn't an option.
:D
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Robert Enns
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Robert Enns » Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:19 pm

Is there supposed to be an actual download link for GPO5? Or is that just an example.
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by MarkSealey » Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:26 pm

Robert,

This Steinberg page has a comprehensive set of links - including GPO.
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Robert Enns » Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:18 pm

Thanks Mark.
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by ANITIX87 » Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:46 pm

I've got such a severe lack of knowledge when it comes to DAW work and how to use all of this stuff that I continuously find myself frustrated at the lack of really good quality I can get out of GPO5.

I've tried learning repeatedly but so much of it just goes above my head. Can we have an FAQ or, even better, a "comprehensive stupid person's guide" for how to use this stuff and get the most out of Dorico's playback?

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by John at Steinberg » Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:51 am

ANITIX87 - sorry I forgot the GPO5 link - I've now updated the post above and the zip file includes technically how to use it. How to get the best out of it is probably at least partly down to GPO?

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by leigh_d » Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:14 pm

The VSL Cubase Xmaps are here under Notation Related:
https://www.vsl.co.at/en/MyVSL

In the Dorico Play>Expression Maps... dialog, the list of Techniques has the Pencil icon for editing but editing is not possible. Creating new techniques is not possible either.

The Xmap files seem to be XML but I really don't want to be hacking XML files in a text editor.

In Write mode how can I access Xmap Playing Techniques if they are not displayed in the Shift-P popover or in the Playing Techniques panel?

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Daniel at Steinberg
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:38 pm

leigh_d wrote:In Write mode how can I access Xmap Playing Techniques if they are not displayed in the Shift-P popover or in the Playing Techniques panel?
Short answer: you can’t. In a future version of Dorico you will be able to edit playing techniques yourself.

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Rinaldo » Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:18 pm

John at Steinberg wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:51 am
ANITIX87 - sorry I forgot the GPO5 link - I've now updated the post above and the zip file includes technically how to use it. How to get the best out of it is probably at least partly down to GPO?
Partly, yes. But this whole business of expression maps etc. is brand new to some of us who are otherwise pretty knowledgeable about other notation software. All help with it is welcome.
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by John at Steinberg » Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:30 am

My aim with this thread is to find other people who might have started an expression map already so we can combine efforts and then provide a link to the finished file with some instructions on how to use it.

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by David Tee » Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:09 am

Hi John,

I'm keen to see Dorico's Play mode developing so I'm more than happy to help create expression maps. I have multiple EW libraries and the first two releases of Spitfire's Symphonic Strings plus quite a bit more which may/may not prove to be useful. The issue I have is that it's not entirely clear

1) Which Articulations trigger which Expression Map Techniques (e.g. what triggers vibrato?)
2) If those Articulations exist in Dorico and where they're found (rips?)
3) Which Articulations are working or not (e.g. Trills aren't working).

Example: I've just put together a quick EM for EWQLSO's Piccolo and I can get 4 out of 18 articulations working details (attached). I appreciate that many of those articulations are quirky (falls, runs etc.) and some are duplicates (3 different kinds of legato) but I put it forward as an example of some of the potential problems. Because it adopts a different approach, Cubase can enable any articulations you specify, but obviously Cubase is nowhere near as concerned with documenting those articulations as Dorico is.

I don't want to leave out any articulations on the basis that they would work but I didn't manage to find out how, so any any answers you can provide to the above questions would be very helpful.
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EWQLSO Piccolo.zip
(63.27 KiB) Downloaded 186 times
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Derrek » Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:54 pm

IIRC Daniel said that user-defined techniques are one goal for the next update.
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Andre » Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:23 pm

I asked this in another post, but because this post is specially about expression maps I think it’s good to discuss it here as well.

I use Art Conductor for Logic by the Babylonwaves company. This company has created a large library of Articulation Maps for the most used instrument libraries. They also made created expression maps for all the libraries that can be used in Cubase. Is it possible to use these expression maps in Dorico? That would save a lot of work.

This is their website:
https://www.babylonwaves.com/expression-maps/
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by PaulWalmsley » Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:52 pm

I think you'll need to ask Babylonwaves. It is possible to import a Cubase expression map, however it doesn't contain the same semantic data as a Dorico expression map, so there may be things that don't quite map onto Dorico's concepts accurately.
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Andre
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Andre » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:01 pm

I asked Marc from BabylonWaves. He doesn't have Dorico he said, but he assumes the maps should be compatible. So maybe there is a possibility here to get the maps much faster into Dorico? I am thinking of buying the Cubase version as well so I can give it a try. I have Cubase so in case it doesn't work out, I can still use them, so no money wasted. But I can of course not upload them here.
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by PaulWalmsley » Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:01 pm

I would be cautious in assuming that the maps would work without testing, but we'll be interested to hear how you get on with them.
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by cemmevo » Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:05 pm

To illustrate that point, yesterday I tried the Cinematic Strings 2 xmap found on the Steinberg xmap page here, but it would not work.

After adding it to the project with the Import Cubase Expression Map... button in the Expression Maps editor available in Play tab, and selecting it in the channel expression map window from the Kontakt VST, it would disappear from the Playing Techniques lane in the Play view (mouse over the techniques in the grid to see which xmap is loaded) once play was started.

The fix was simple - I needed to change the CS2 technique terms into Dorico's own terms before getting desired behavior -
the default CS2 xmap used terms such as unis., div., run, and except for unis. and div., all techniques had multiple terms in the field - (Pizzicato + unis. , Tremolo + div., etc). Attached file is working for me at a basic level.
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CS2_xmap_x100.zip
(1.27 KiB) Downloaded 380 times

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by David Tee » Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:55 pm

cemmevo wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:05 pm
To illustrate that point, yesterday I tried the Cinematic Strings 2 xmap found on the Steinberg xmap page here, but it would not work.

After adding it to the project with the Import Cubase Expression Map... button in the Expression Maps editor available in Play tab, and selecting it in the channel expression map window from the Kontakt VST, it would disappear from the Playing Techniques lane in the Play view (mouse over the techniques in the grid to see which xmap is loaded) once play was started.

The fix was simple - I needed to change the CS2 technique terms into Dorico's own terms before getting desired behavior -
the default CS2 xmap used terms such as unis., div., run, and except for unis. and div., all techniques had multiple terms in the field - (Pizzicato + unis. , Tremolo + div., etc). Attached file is working for me at a basic level.
Just out of interest, how many articulations did you get to work?
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by cemmevo » Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:27 pm

The default CS2 xmap came w/ 10:
unis.; Tremolo + unis.; pt.trill.half + unis.; pt.trill.whole + unis.; unis. + run; Staccato + unis.; Accent + unis.; Pizzicato + unis.; div.; Tremolo + div.

Six are working for me, I used the unis. switch for all. It would be possible to make a second version w/ the div. switch instead.

In Dorico, unis. became Natural; Accent became Marcato (although there is an accent expression in Dorico, CS2 calls it Marcato over in Kontakt); Pizzicato; Tremolo; Staccato; Trill (I used the whole step expression for my first version).


I have only extremely limited experience with this, so I am at a basic concepts phase currently.

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by David Tee » Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:49 pm

Thanks

So the six are Natural, Accent, Pizzicato, Tremolo, Staccato and ? (I ask because I can't get Trill to work...)
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by PaulWalmsley » Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:22 pm

Trills are not currently implemented. They are a bit more involved than the other playing techniques as Dorico has to know whether to use a half or full tone switch.
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by cemmevo » Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:23 pm

Apologies, I see now that I had not tested the actual output response for the trill technique.

I did make another very basic xmap, for NI Symphony Series String Ensemble and attached it.

In addition to the more common articulations and Dorico associations, there is a "Harmonics" patch and a "Sordino Sus. Vibrato. Using what technique nomenclature is available for now, I equated the "Harmonics" with the Dorico "Half-harmonic", and the "Sordino Sus. Vibrato" with Dorico "Muted".

Note that I did not equate a technique for the "Octave Runs up" articulation. Same case for the Cinematic Strings 2, there is a "Run mode" articulation that I did not use in my initial version of the xmap.
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NI_SSSE_xmap_x100.zip
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Andre » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:26 am

I bought the Cubase version of the Expression maps from BabylonWaves. Although I can import them into Dorico and they look normally in the EM editor, they don't trigger anything and don't even play back the music. Not sure why this is. I can still use them in Cubase though.
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by David Tee » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:45 am

Hi Andre. It's because they're not mapped properly. At the moment only some of Dorico's articulations are triggering events and those have to be mapped back correctly to the appropriate articulation for each sound library. If I understand the BabylonWaves package correctly, they've gone one stage further and introduced a standard for all articulations which works across all libraries that they've mapped. However, that's still program dependent which is why they have different files for Logic and Cubase. As Dorico takes yet another different approach to Expression maps, that would mean Babylonwaves adopting a different approach as well.
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