Expression Maps

Discussions about our next-generation scoring application, Dorico.
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dko22
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by dko22 » Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:08 am

Daniel at Steinberg wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:45 pm
Harmonics do not play back for any sound library at the moment. Once there is support for harmonics, you should be able to set it up for any library by defining things appropriately in the expression map you are using.
Thanks, that seems clear. Could I just briefly explore then the reasons? To give a concrete example. To play a harmonic in VSL solo strings, you need to set keyswitch C0 and modulation to 98. leaving aside notation completely for the moment, if you programme these settings into an Expression Map (assuming this is indeed possible), are the settings simply ignored by Dorico or will a harmonic patch in this instance be triggered? If the former, then why and what specific support is required? In Sibelius (and even Overture which I briefly used over a decade ago) any sort of instruction like this would always be acted on afaik. Less complex libraries, including much of VSL SE only require the keyswitches. It's something I've been trying to get my head around and feel I'm probably missing something here.

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Rob Tuley » Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:34 am

You can make your own playing technique to do whatever you want. The point is that Dorico doesn't yet automatically trigger a harmonics playing technique, from the conventional score notation. You will also have to send the correct MIDI note if the library wants the sounding pitch not the written pitch. For string harmonics, the standard notation score is two written notes neither of which is the sounding pitch, of course.

"Harmonics" on guitar, harp, and strings are notated different ways and most likely different sound libraries want different information to play them correctly. When Dorico does implement something, it usually tries to deal with the general case, not just one specific library. There are different conventions as to whether the score notation should be the fundamental or the sounding pitch for some instruments, to add another complication.

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by andgle » Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:20 pm

Daniel at Steinberg wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:50 am
[...]particularly the extended tool tip that appears when you hover your mouse pointer over each region in the lane.
Oh, how did I miss this? This is very useful! :D
Anders

dko22
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by dko22 » Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:06 pm

Rob Tuley wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:34 am
You can make your own playing technique to do whatever you want. The point is that Dorico doesn't yet automatically trigger a harmonics playing technique, from the conventional score notation. You will also have to send the correct MIDI note if the library wants the sounding pitch not the written pitch. For string harmonics, the standard notation score is two written notes neither of which is the sounding pitch, of course.

"Harmonics" on guitar, harp, and strings are notated different ways and most likely different sound libraries want different information to play them correctly. When Dorico does implement something, it usually tries to deal with the general case, not just one specific library. There are different conventions as to whether the score notation should be the fundamental or the sounding pitch for some instruments, to add another complication.
thanks,that seems to clarify things -- it is possible but not yet implemented at notation level. I'm aware that there are different notations for string harmonics which includes a variant which is at the sounding pitch but I think you're correct in saying (I'm no expert) it's not the most common as your average string player would prefer to know which notes to actually play, rather than the end result even if Sibelius also allows the latter in its harmonics implementation.

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Rob Tuley » Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:47 pm

Natural harmonics on strings are usually notated at sounding pitch, but artificial harmonics are not.

For harp, both sounding and fundamental pitch are used by different composers and/or publishers. For guitar staff notation, to be honest the notation "conventions" (there are at least 4 different ones) are a mess. Some published Villa-Lobos scores are just plain ambiguous, and if you compare recordings different guitarists have played completely different pitches from the same score notation!

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by dko22 » Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:17 pm

I imagine that Dorico will follow convention with the strings notations when the feature is implemented. Sibelius allows artificial harmonics written at pitch which, out of laziness, I tend to follow even though I'm dimly aware that it's not proper procedure.

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by PaulWalmsley » Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:26 am

pnicholls wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 am
My understanding is that this thread is was originally created by Paul as a place where Dorico Expression Maps could be posted for download or traded between members. My impression is that an East West Hollywood Strings expression map has already been created. Something of this nature has already been publicly used in the Discover Dorico video series. Perhaps this Expression Map might have been upgraded with the new features of Dorico 3 and along with the new Playback Templates too (including using the change midi channels feature).
We don't have an official EW Hollywood Strings expression map. If you have seen them in the Discover Dorico series then that's probably because John was experimenting with them. I have also been experimenting with them briefly, but the difficulty is that it entirely depends on which combinations of articulations you load into each channel. HW Strings does provide a few keyswitched patches, but these only contain a small number of articulations (as I recall, they don't include pizz for instance), so even if we did have an expression map, it would also need very specific instructions on how to load each articulation into each Play instance.
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by patrom » Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:00 pm

--> find the playing techniques lane for each instrument in Play mode helpful, particularly the extended tool tip that appears when you hover your mouse pointer over each region in the lane.

Ok, thanks that explains a lot. So combining articulations is not merging the articulations.
A custom articulation on a note will be overridden by a staccato dot on the note for example.

What I was trying to do, is sent a program change for my muted strings which have the same articulations (vib, tremelo, pizz...) as my natural strings.
Merging the articulations with some control of order would solve most of my issues, I guess.

Do grouped playing techniques control something in expression maps or are they just a graphical thing?

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Daniel at Steinberg
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:49 pm

Whether or not playing techniques are grouped doesn't have any bearing on how they play back: they all cause playback playing techniques to be emitted, but the grouping aspect simply ensures that they abut.

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by MichaelGordonShapiro » Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:04 pm

For some reason I can't get "cuivre" to trigger via an expression map, even though I seem to have set it up properly and have added that playing technique into my score in Write mode. Other playing techniques work just fine, but cuivre specifically seems not to trigger anything.

Is this playing technique a special case? Is it possible that the accent mark (or lack thereof) is causing a problem with recognition?

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by LSalgueiro » Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:46 pm

MichaelGordonShapiro wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:04 pm
For some reason I can't get "cuivre" to trigger via an expression map, even though I seem to have set it up properly and have added that playing technique into my score in Write mode. Other playing techniques work just fine, but cuivre specifically seems not to trigger anything.

Is this playing technique a special case? Is it possible that the accent mark (or lack thereof) is causing a problem with recognition?
Does the Expression map read "cruivé" or "Accent + cuivré"?

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Rob Tuley » Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:10 pm

I read MichaelGordonShapiro's "accent mark" as meaning "cuivré not cuivre", but reading it as "an accent articulation plus the cuivré playing technique" also makes sense.

If you type cuivre without the accent in the popover, you get cuivré anyway.

The predefined cuivré playing technique in the right hand panel triggers the "Muted" playback technique. "Muted" doesn't seem to be defined in the HSO expression maps, though it is in NotePerformer. If you are using a different library, check the expression maps you are using.

Whether "Muted" is a good interpretation of "cuivré" is another question, of course, but I guess the default playing techniques are going to be restricted to triggering fairly "generic" playback techniques that will be in most sample libraries.

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by L3B » Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:30 am

Well, I'm no horn player, but according to the orchestration book I use (Kennan) cuivree is most definitely not a type of muting, but a change in embouchure that changes the tone quality to a more 'brassy' sound, which is in my mind sort of a diagonal opposite of muting.
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Rob Tuley » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:05 am

I'm no horn player either, but interpreting cuivré as "muted" raised my eyebrows as well.

But since we are talking about sample libraries not real instruments, it's possible that a "muted" patch with the volume turned up to 11 might be a reasonable option if the library doesn't have the real thing.

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Stephen Taylor
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Stephen Taylor » Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:22 pm

I am an ex-horn player, and cuivré does indeed mean brassy. Think Chicago Symphony playing Mahler or Bruckner.
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dankreider
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by dankreider » Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:42 pm

Stephen Taylor wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:22 pm
Think Chicago Symphony playing Mahler or Bruckner.
Great, thanks Stephen. I had a bunch of work to do, but now I can't resist a dip into YouTube. See you all in an hour... 8-)
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Stephen Taylor
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Stephen Taylor » Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:41 pm

Here's just the ticket - Sir Georg Solti with CSO, the opening of Mahler 3!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NkYogluc6A
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by LSalgueiro » Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:59 pm

Kräftig indeed :lol:

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by anros1 » Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:14 pm

Hey
I have a strange issue. When using the expression map I get no sound on sustain notes. Anything with an articulation plays; anything with no articulation is silent.
Thoughts?

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by LSalgueiro » Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:37 pm

Do you have a Natural playback technique defined in the Expression map?

Knomes
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Knomes » Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:49 pm

Hi,
I was wondering if there are expression maps available for Cinematic Studio Strings and Cinematic Studio Brass

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