Expression Maps

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Rob Tuley
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Rob Tuley » Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:16 pm

Derrek wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:59 pm
Actually a chromatic gliss for a keyboard instrument would not be realistic.
A contemporary of Liszt (whose name I forget) invented a way of playing a chromatic keyboard gliss using both hands. There were a few of his compositions published, with footnotes explaining the technique.

He tried to teach Liszt the same party trick, but LIszt didn't succeed in learning how to play it - which is probably a good thing with hindsight, otherwise every pianist-composer would probably have used it thereafter!

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Derrek » Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:19 pm

Interesting historical fact.
Do you suppose it really sounded like a chromatic gliss or just a blur of the two keysets? (Of course a gliss is often intended as a kind of blur of sound.)

I'd love to have heard it; but I, too, am glad Liszt didn't learn it.
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Rob Tuley
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Rob Tuley » Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:31 pm

The guy was Tausig, who was considered by some to be Liszt's star pupil, and it's in his published "Opus 1". Maybe he calmed down a bit later on.

Piano students of a certain age may remember his "Daily Exercises" - not necessarily fondly!

It's been recorded. There are a couple of them just after 2:00 here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqJW_hwDKlY

And the score is here: https://imslp.org/wiki/Das_Geisterschif ... g%2C_Carl)

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Derrek » Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:31 pm

Interesting. Thank you. It does pretty much create a blur rather than a sequential chromatic gliss, but if that's what the composer wanted...
One could probably simulate that if one could use the harp gliss engine in the left hand and a standard white-key keyboard gliss in the right.
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Rob Tuley
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Rob Tuley » Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:19 pm

I don't have any desire to break a finger practicing it, but I don't think it would work very well without the sustain pedal down - hence the blur.

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by LSalgueiro » Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:10 pm

Kind of like the octave glissando Hamelin can do (although, while seemingly simpler, I find it much more impressive). I'll leave it to him or to very, very specific occasions!

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Rob Tuley » Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:17 am

Not only Hamelin. Octave glissandos have been around since Beethoven, Op. 53. Czerny wrote an exercise with glissandos in thirds in one hand as well as octaves.

Even kids can learn how to do octaves … https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgLQwHR5BFo

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by LSalgueiro » Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:28 am

You're totally right. I meant specifically glissing up — reacting to your comment about breaking a finger — but I had totally forgotten that both lines in the Waldstein finale are in octaves, not just the right hand! I imagine that's really the earliest precedent, no?

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Rob Tuley » Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:17 am

There is some debate about whether the Waldstein really is a precedent, since Beethoven didn't mark it as a gliss, but a "pro" argument is that Czerny was his pupil and included it in one of his sets of exercises, so there must have been some precedent for that.

Beethoven fingered each octave 5-1, and his fingerings are rare and significant, so that presumably meant something - though it's not obvious what.

Given that Beethoven was demonstrably "arithmetically challenged" you could make an argument that the previous pp passage of triplets is actually notated at double the speed it's supposed to be played, and there's then no need for glissandos if that continues at about the same tempo as the last movement (especially if you note it is marked Allegretto moderato)), with another accel to prestissimo at the end.

Argerich just plays octaves - and not as fast as she can play octaves, either.

Just for amusement, there is a novel "diagonal" notation of a couple of chords on the previous page of the first edition which is actually the reverse of Beethoven's manuscript, where they slope downwards not upwards. Isn't musicology fun? :)
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DaddyO
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by DaddyO » Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:23 pm

Daniel at Steinberg wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:50 am
You should find the playing techniques lane for each instrument in Play mode helpful, particularly the extended tool tip that appears when you hover your mouse pointer over each region in the lane.
What are the "Internal Effects" I sometimes encounter when I hover over a PT in the PT lane in Play Mode? I think they are messing with my EM's.
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Rob Tuley » Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:56 pm

I guess they are PTs generated by standard music notation in the score - e.g. staccato dots, slurs, etc.

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by PaulWalmsley » Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:16 pm

That's correct: they are techniques which we have a fallback method of rendering if the expression map doesn't provide that technique. Staccato/staccatissmo/tenuto change note lengths, accent/marcato/ghost increase the dynamic level, tremolo/trill/buzz roll have notes generated for them.
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DaddyO
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by DaddyO » Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:48 pm

Thanks, that's what I suspected.

So does that mean if I need Staccato to play back with a particular 3rd party VST staccato patch (as opposed to shortening the note, which seems to be what the standard staccato dot does), I have to define my own Staccato Playing Technique and Playback Playing Technique for use in an Expression Map entry?
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by LSalgueiro » Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:10 pm

Yes, of course.

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by DaddyO » Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:58 pm

Got it, thanks.
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Marcabru » Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:36 pm

I know I'm a long way behind on this, but just to note that I found it wasn't fruitful to import Cubase VSL maps. Lots of duplicates and extraneous things. As easy to start from scratch as to weed those out.

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by dko22 » Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:33 pm

There are supposed to be VSL Dorico-specific maps coming out shortly. Don't know if there's any update on the timescale?

For what it's worth, the Special Edition Cubase map more or less works for me and it's transparent enough to be able to make the occasional addition/correction if necessary. The far more complicated full VSL package like the strings remain a completely dark art where the Expression Map bears no resemblance to what is actually being triggered by VSL from what I can see, though I'm happy to be corrected.

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Marcabru » Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:33 pm

Yeah I waited for the Finale maps, and by the time they came I'd worked out how to set it up for myself, and didn't fancy the risk of trying to merge with the official set and losing everything I'd done. Starting from scratch with Dorico, but that experience certainly helped a lot.

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