Expression Maps

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Daniel at Steinberg
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:47 am

No, Dorico's handling of Cubase's expression maps is not 100%. Some of the fields in the Cubase expression map are imported but are not used during playback.

There is currently no support for "envelope"-type dynamics where a single dynamic like sfz needs to give rise to some kind of continuous set of controllers to shape the sound over time, or indeed to trigger a keyswitch for a performed, sampled sforzando or similar.

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Thurisaz » Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:46 am

Daniel hello,
Congratulations for the new version of Dorico! :-) On the videos and the description looks very improved.
I can see in one of you posts that it's still not possible to assign expressions - articulations, techniques, dynamics, to CC, Velocity, KeySwitches, Program Changes in "Write Mode"... still not a Dorico user, but I'm long time Cubase user and from my experience the Expression Maps is kind of wasting time feature and not intuitive.
Overture 5.5 is part of composing tools, especially if I need to score something faster. The way how the expressions can be assigned/mapped in this program is the best, the fastest and most intuitive I've ever seen. Yes the Engraving side of OV5 is still not the best thing for creating scores for publishing, but I can always transfer a project into Sibelius. Don Williams really knows how the musicians thinking while composing music.
I really hope that you and your genius team will implement a similar, or even better way for assignment / mapping.

I'm still waiting the real-time recording to be integrated and the working with VST instruments, Kontakt libraries... to be more improved (HSO and Noteperformer are too far from the sound quality level of Orchestral Tools - Berlin Series, Spitfire Audio, or East West - Hollywood) before buying Dorico.

Success and keep doing your great job! :-)

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:54 am

I confess that I'm not super-familiar with Overture's workflow: can you point me to a bit of documentation or a video that shows how Overture manages the assignment of expressions, so I can understand exactly what you mean? Thank you.

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Thurisaz » Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:15 am

Daniel at Steinberg wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:54 am
I confess that I'm not super-familiar with Overture's workflow: can you point me to a bit of documentation or a video that shows how Overture manages the assignment of expressions, so I can understand exactly what you mean? Thank you.
Daniel, thank you for the fast reply! :-) Well, the documentation is html based inside Overture, but there is demo version which can be downloaded from the links here: https://sonicscores.com/forum/viewtopic ... 54&t=19777 so, you'll be able to make some tests. You may take some ideas.
I was able to make basic 16 bars orchestral arrangement just for around 1h 40m. after the first installation.. which includes: the time for learning the basics of the program, the time for creating orchestral template with libraries I'm using the most in Cubase, the time for learning how to assign expressions... to do some CC editing and humanizing, and the time to think about what piece to orchestrate and orchestration itself...
Overture produces very good looking notes, I did some orchestrations for orchestras here and asked the conductors and the musicians for feedback on how the master score and the parts look, without telling them what software I'm using... They liked the sheets. No reading difficulties :-)
Don is going to release new update soon, with updated documentation, because he did many changes and improvements which are still not documented.
Worth to spend time to learn how it works... You could find very good ideas for improvement of Dorico, I find the Hybrid View (Staff View/Piano Roll) in the "Linear View" very helpful and you can use it while entering note. Without need to switch to "Play Mode".
I'm following the development of Dorico since 2015. Then I started dreaming about about easy to use notation based Hybrid-DAW for composing, arranging and orchestrating with high quality Engraving, to compete Sibelius and Finale. For the composing process the most important thing is the tech work to be reduced to minimum, which is achieved in Overture 5.5...
Last Autumn I discovered Overture 5.5 which answered my dream on 80%, just the Engraving side is still not on the level of Sibelius and Finale, and needs some more stability, layout and audio engine improvements. But Don is the only one to develop the very complex software and everything takes time. Fortunately he focused his attention more on improving the Engraving.
Every expression - symbols, technique text and dynamics on the score needs just double mouse click to open dialog for assignment option. In the Right Panel you can create almost complete assignment for all expressions per instrument.

I really hope that you would take Don's work very seriously because he does what is really needed by DAW composers who prefer to work with notes, with optional but enough powerful midi mockup editor (Staff View/Piano Roll). The real-time recording is really good, too.

The good thing is that after the trial period ended you can continue using Overture, but without saving and exporting options.

Videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_xI-Zx2aR8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_zy3xuwdYY
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... lMs3BQZlEb
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clujDKDo5Os
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdn-iU3NzNI

Daniel, thank you once again for the replay! :-)

Best regards :-)

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:52 pm

Thanks for taking the time to share those videos. VST Expression Maps in Dorico provide – or will provide, in some cases, since not everything is yet implemented for them – the same kinds of controls as you see in Overture, except that they are abstracted away from individual items in the score. In Overture it appears that you can (and perhaps have to?) set the behaviour of e.g. a staccato articulation on each instrument independently, whereas the idea behind the VST Expression Map concept is that you have a set of mappings between the item in the score itself and the actual playback that will be produced, and the application (whether Cubase or Dorico) automatically maps between them as needed. But it may be that we can help to make the connection between the item in the score and the VST Expression Map being used more direct, e.g. by somehow making it possible to get to the specific expression map in use for a given instrument and select the appropriate playing technique in there. Definitely some food for thought as we continue to build out this part of the application.

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Thurisaz » Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:02 pm

Daniel at Steinberg wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:52 pm
Thanks for taking the time to share those videos. VST Expression Maps in Dorico provide – or will provide, in some cases, since not everything is yet implemented for them – the same kinds of controls as you see in Overture, except that they are abstracted away from individual items in the score. In Overture it appears that you can (and perhaps have to?) set the behaviour of e.g. a staccato articulation on each instrument independently, whereas the idea behind the VST Expression Map concept is that you have a set of mappings between the item in the score itself and the actual playback that will be produced, and the application (whether Cubase or Dorico) automatically maps between them as needed. But it may be that we can help to make the connection between the item in the score and the VST Expression Map being used more direct, e.g. by somehow making it possible to get to the specific expression map in use for a given instrument and select the appropriate playing technique in there. Definitely some food for thought as we continue to build out this part of the application.
Daniel, thank you for the reply! :-)
Yes in Overture you have to do assignment per instrument, but there are global maps per instrument track too, where you can set custom defaults. It's logical to be per instrument, because, for instance, staccato is placed on different KeySwitch for every instrument library, or separate patch... What if you use instruments from different libraries?! It's meaningless to make custom VST Expression Maps for customized template and then to use more direct mapping... Too much tech work. Please, think about that! :-) For me the VST Expression Maps in Cubase Pro is kind of useless thing, I've spend enough time to give it a try, Even I bought the maps of Babylonwaves... Very useless for Orchestral Tools, the library I'm using the most...
The musical logic is to load all patches - long, shorts, special bows, sfx , for example Violins I, into one Kontakt 5 instance on different midi channels, as one instrument. The maps for OT in Babylonwaves bundle are arranged separately per patch, which makes them non-functional. The much easier way in Cubase is just to create separate midi tracks per patch and use the keyswitches as midi mockup and to forget about the Maps. But this cannot happen in notation software because there is one stave per instrument.
From my long time experience working with different DAWs and testing different Notation software... I can say that the VST Expression Maps in Cubase is the worst, and the assignment in Overture is the best existing. If you find a way to make it easier, time saver and more logical than Overture, yours will be the best. :-)
You can give VST Expression Maps to those who like them. Personally I know many Cubase users and none of them use this function. :-)
I'm aware that you'll have to make Dorico in the future to work more closer with Cubase and Nuendo, and to transfer as much as possible data from and to them. Please, keep Dorico simple, clean and easy to use. This is what attracts me in Overture, despite the weaknesses it has.
Dorico by the time becomes more and more powerful and I like how the development going, but the DAW functions have to be very carefully and well developed and implemented.

As I can see Dorico is going in the same hybrid-DAW direction as Overture, so if you have enough time, spend it for learning the functions in Overture, it won't take too much time. :-) The expression assignment, actually, very flexible. Even the harp pedal can be assigned per pedal CC.

Thank you once again! :-)

Best regards

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Bollen » Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:44 pm

Daniel at Steinberg wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:52 pm
Thanks for taking the time to share those videos. VST Expression Maps in Dorico provide – or will provide, in some cases, since not everything is yet implemented for them – the same kinds of controls as you see in Overture, except that they are abstracted away from individual items in the score. In Overture it appears that you can (and perhaps have to?) set the behaviour of e.g. a staccato articulation on each instrument independently, whereas the idea behind the VST Expression Map concept is that you have a set of mappings between the item in the score itself and the actual playback that will be produced, and the application (whether Cubase or Dorico) automatically maps between them as needed. But it may be that we can help to make the connection between the item in the score and the VST Expression Map being used more direct, e.g. by somehow making it possible to get to the specific expression map in use for a given instrument and select the appropriate playing technique in there. Definitely some food for thought as we continue to build out this part of the application.
The idea behind Overture's design is genius, but it's implementation is appalling. I have not been able to do any work on it (for three years) since it seems to crash for no reason and Don loses his temper very quickly (even deletes posts if he doesn't like them).

I think the simplest solution would be to allow the drawing of keyswitches, that do not appear in the music, in the Play Mode automation window. Since most articulations depend on context and not on a specific patch e.g. a staccato in an adagio is not the same as in a presto, this method would allow for very sophisticated performance programming.

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Re: Expression Maps - VX-Instruments ?

Post by slashgad » Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:53 pm

One question about the triggerin of different artikulations:

In HALion 6 I find several Instruments with different articulations if I type "VX" in the search-box.

for example:

- brass section VX
- clean guitar VX
- steel guitar VX
- bass guitar VX
... and may more (see pic):

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UU4Fcy ... sp=sharing

How can I use these instruments in Dorico with it's different articulations?


Regards!

Slashgad
Cubase Pro 10, Dorico 3, SIBELIUS 7.5, WAVELAB Elements 8, Guitar Pro 7.5
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:13 pm

You would need to create expression maps for them in Play > Expression Maps, and then assign those expression maps to the corresponding channels in the Endpoint Setup dialog, which is the dialog opened by clicking the cog icon next to the specific instance of the VST instrument you're using, in the VST Instruments panel in Play mode.

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Re: Expression Maps - VX-Instruments ?

Post by slashgad » Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:17 pm

O.k. - but these instruments don't have normal keyswitches.
They use the controller lane in Cubase's key-editor to trigger the different articulations.
That's a Cubase-specific thing... (... maybe I didn't understood you're answer. I'll try it again in the Dorico-software!)
Cubase Pro 10, Dorico 3, SIBELIUS 7.5, WAVELAB Elements 8, Guitar Pro 7.5
K11 U, Maschine MkII, GA5, WAVES-Plugins, IK MM SampleTank3,
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Frieda » Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:08 pm

Hi,

I use Kontakt in VE PRO. Several articulations loaded in 1 instance of Kontakt. Will Expression maps give in future the possibility to choose a channel for an articulation.
For instance in Channel 1 in Kontakt I have Legato, in Ch 2, spiccato, in Ch 3 staccato etc.

By the way, I can only choose channels but not a port of VE PRO in Dorico.


Kind regards,


Frieda

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:10 pm

Yes, in the future you will be able to change channel in an expression map, and you will also be able to access different ports in VE Pro, but I'm afraid I can't say when that will be.

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Re: Expression Maps - VX-Instruments ?

Post by Brian Roland » Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:34 pm

slashgad wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:53 pm
One question about the triggerin of different artikulations:

In HALion 6 I find several Instruments with different articulations if I type "VX" in the search-box.

for example:

- brass section VX
- clean guitar VX
- steel guitar VX
- bass guitar VX
... and may more (see pic):

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UU4Fcy ... sp=sharing

How can I use these instruments in Dorico with it's different articulations?


Regards!

Slashgad
The HALion VX Instruments that have them (I.E. Large Strings VX) use key-switches that must be 'held down' throughout the duration of the note(s) that use them. Dorico does this, so no problem there.

VX Instruments, like most things HALion also have parameters one can adjust in real time via CC events. These can be attached to symbols and articulation 'techniques' in Dorico as well. In Dorico 2, one can also enter such events into CC lanes in the Play Tab view. The most common things one would like to tweak are typically arranged across HALion's 8 Quick Controls.

By default the Quick Control (QC) knobs can be automated via the following CC events (each knob from left to right)):
1. 74
2. 71
3. 73
4. 72
5. 75
6. 76
7. 77
8. 78

There are other things one can automate as well.
Here is a more complete list as found in the Sonic SE 3 manual.
Automation and Factory MIDI Controller Assignment

They are the same for Sonic 2 and 3, SE 2 and 3, and HALion 5 and 6, and you can host the VX instruments in any of these players. I believe they may be valid for HALion 4 as well, but I'm not 'sure' about that.

In HALion, and also for many things in Sonic, one can assign a custom CC to almost any variable or control at any time by right clicking it, choosing 'learn' and moving a control (make sure the stave is active). If you don't have a MIDI controller/keyboard handy for 'learning things', in the full blown HALion 6, there are number of methods to go deep into a program and assign custom CC automation for pretty much any and every parameter in HALion.

Most of the time anything you'd want to automate is going to be on a QC knob, but if not, give 'learning' a try. If you do end up with a highly customized instrument with lots of 'learns', be sure to save a copy of your modified program in HALion so it'll be there for 'future projects'.

When building an expressionmap for an instrument, you can include a key-switch, as well as any CC parameters you like for each 'technique'. Have a look at Dorico's expression map editor to get your feet wet. There are a number of threads here on how to begin building them. You can probably find videos and such about it as well.

Specific questions for a specific instrument in HALion? Start a new thread, and I'll be happy to try to help out. Such a thread can get rather long and involved, so it really should stand on its own instead of being part of this one.

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by olamo » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:09 pm

Would love to have a complete and fully working set of EWQLSO with all articulations.
Great sound vs cpu/disk. Have used it at lot both in Nuendo and Sibelius

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by scoredfilms » Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:03 pm

Daniel at Steinberg wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 2:54 pm
Playing techniques can now be hidden by way of a dedicated property in the Properties panel, rather than requiring them to have their colour changed.
:D :D :D

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by scoredfilms » Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:54 pm

Thurisaz,

I agree that Overture's implementation of mapping articulations is fast. Although if it's of any interest... someone pointed me to this thread after I posted this feature request: viewtopic.php?f=246&t=139670

Overture has some mapping simplicity, though it also needs a more organized UI (Don mentioned that he knows this). He invited me to NAMM and he's easily the most user-oriented programmer I've ever known. Plus it's a serious credit to him being a one-man-band. But that said, I don't think Steinberg should necessarily look to Overture here. While Don is user-oriented for functionality, UI and ease-of-use are another world. That's the area that I believe your input is touching on the most.

Anyway, I'd just suggest keeping FR's closer to the way Dorico/Cubase works. It's the only way to make headway half the time.

-Sean
Last edited by scoredfilms on Sat Jun 30, 2018 2:19 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Troubadixderdritte » Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:15 pm

Hello,

Does anyone know if Dorico also supports the al new Iconic Orchestra Library by HALion with an expression map?

Thanks a lot for some information!

Fabian

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by MarcLarcher » Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:41 pm

Dear Fabian,
Please search the forum before you post.
viewtopic.php?f=246&t=140407
OS X 10.14.6, macbook pro retina Late 2013
Opera singer (lyric tenor), photographer, sound engineer, XeLaTeX user and music engraver (Dorico Pro 3.0.10, and Photoscore Ultimate 8.8.7)
French is my native language

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Steve Martin » Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:11 pm

Hi to the Forum.

I'm attempting to finally start using Dorico in its version 2, and have been watching the YouTube Dorico videos etc so I can start to get familiar with it. I would need some time to learn how to create an expression map, so, instead, what I'm planning to do is to import a midi file from a score I've been working on in Sibelius (as a midi file exported from Sibelius), and then open it in Dorico. I'd like to import all of the controller data etc achieved in my original score and edit it further in Dorico using it's new controller lanes. Is it possible, that we can "type" key switch messages into the Dorico score as we do in Sibelius and "hide" them?


thanks if anyone has any info on this. Sorry if this is an obvious question - I've just starting to watch the Dorico videos on note entering etc, so this is all new to me.

best,

Steve.

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:18 pm

You can't type MIDI messages directly into Dorico using text as you can in Sibelius, so you can't add keyswitch notes using text: you will indeed need to create an expression map to send keyswitch notes.

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Steve Martin » Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:24 am

Hi Daniel,

thanks for your reply. Yes, you correct, an expression map is going to be the way to go, and from the videos I've seen, it doesn't appear to be that hard. I'll watch again and give it a go. I'm enjoying what I've seen so far about Dorico. Very exciting learning new software, and Dorico has so many amazing features, I'm itching to get stuck into learning it :)

best,

Steve

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Brian Roland » Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:17 am

Steve Martin wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:24 am
Hi Daniel,

thanks for your reply. Yes, you correct, an expression map is going to be the way to go, and from the videos I've seen, it doesn't appear to be that hard. I'll watch again and give it a go. I'm enjoying what I've seen so far about Dorico. Very exciting learning new software, and Dorico has so many amazing features, I'm itching to get stuck into learning it :)

best,

Steve
It is possible to keep key-switches on an independent supplementary play-back stave which you manually redirect to the same plugin/channel. You can then filter such a supplemental player/stave from view via master page settings in the engrave mode. From there such hidden staves will show up in Galley View, but be hidden from your page view.

Ultimately you'll want to build your expression maps and attach things to techniques, but it's nice to know that when you need to manually apply key-switches frequently, a supplemental stave is an option.

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by xenophon » Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:14 pm

I am very interested in VSL maps for orchestral and percussion instruments. With VSL one often has to input a keyswitch, controller value and patch number for the desired sound. Is that currently possible with Dorico?

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by xenophon » Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:00 pm

As a long-term and committed VSL user, I hope that the Dorico and VSL teams continue to work together to improve the relationship between Dorico and VSL playback.

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by benwiggy » Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:53 pm

John at Steinberg wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:13 pm

Downloadable expression map(s):
  • Garritan Personal Orchestra 5
Would it be easy to modify this for the Garritan Instrument library that comes with Finale? Also, is there a Playback template for Aria Player?
MacMini 2018, 3GHz i5, 32Gb RAM | MacBook Pro 2014, 2.2 GHz i7 | Garritan Personal Orchestra 5
Ancient Groove Music

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