Expression Maps

Discussions about our next-generation scoring application, Dorico.
TimothyWhalenMusic
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by TimothyWhalenMusic »

Has anyone created an expression map for Garritan Jazz and Big Band?
I want to check first before I dive in and attempt to make one.

Sorry if this is a redundant post. I've searched, and haven't seen anything.
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Daniel at Steinberg
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Daniel at Steinberg »

I believe John might have at least the beginnings of a JABB expression map. You could try emailing him at j dot barron at steinberg dot de to see.

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by TimothyWhalenMusic »

Thank you, Daniel!
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by sakasuri »

I’ve been creating expression map for Cinematic Studio Strings. For shorts and especially legato, it would be very useful if in expression maps one could define note start offset (in ms) for each entry.

I can do this manually in properties panel, but I need to always calculate the correct amount of ticks based on the current tempo.

If I could have one wish for the next update, this would be it! :)

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Daniel at Steinberg
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Daniel at Steinberg »

This is something that we do plan to address in a future version.

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by sakasuri »

I'm very glad to hear that!

At the moment I'm controlling the legato (of CSS) with custom playing techniques that set the note velocities to desired values for each type of legato. This is possible because of the velocity (and CC) ranges, thank you for that!

I thought about it for a long time and I think the whole legato programming process (for CSS) could be automated if the expression maps had these conditions:

First note of a phrase = note after a rest (Velocity and CC1 controlled dynamics)

Subsequent note of a phrase = note after a different note (CC1 controlled dynamics, velocity controlling legato type)

Repeated note = note after the same note (CC64 [pedal] connecting two notes)

Previous note lenght = lenght condition of a previous note (defines type of legato and note start offset)

Additionally, it would help if the user could define his own note leght conditions.

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by paulxoro »

I would like to obtain a properly working expression map of Miroslav Philharmonik 2 (by IK Multimedia).

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Johannes915 »

Hi Dorico Experts,

I really would like to have Expression maps for East West Symphonic Orchestra and for VSL Synchron Piano Steinway.

Thanks

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Johannes915 »

Hi Dorico Experts,

additionally I have a question about creating Expression maps. I want to use sample patches (like e.g. Cello Master Keyswitches which sum up/include single sample patches like "Sus vib on C0", "Sus-Leg on D0", "Exp Vib on F5", …. and so on) from East West Symphonic Orchestra Platinum Plus which has no modulation control, but only velocity control . How do I program Expression maps for fixed dynamics like ppp, pp, p, mp, mf, f, ff, fff for e.g the Master Keyswitch Patches of EW Symphonic Orchestra.
Furthermore, I would like to know how can I program crescendi and descrecendi via modulation and volume in addition to using fixed dynamics (via Velocity) (ppp, pp, p, mp, mf, ….) and how can I switch between a patch with modulation and a patch with velocity. I would like to use all three, patches with only Velocity, patches with modulation and patches with both modulation and Velocity control.

I have no idea how to program expression maps at all. It seems to be very complicated.

The underlying goal is to make a presentation that is as authentic and realistic as possible as a mockup. Because I want to upload my own compositions e.g. to Youtube now and then and since I don't have a real orchestra available, a good sound would be great.

Maybe my concept/idea of using Expression maps is wrong. So I am open to corrections and suggestions.


Due to the complexity, my Amateurs English and a missing german-speaking forum, I would be happy to receive an english Version and a german version, if possible.

Thanks for help and advice.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

German Translation:

Hallo Dorico-Experten,

ich habe darüber hinaus eine Frage zum Erstellen von Expression Maps. Ich möchte Sample-Patches (wie z. B. Cello Master Keyswitches, die einzelne Sample-Patches wie "Sus vib on C0", "Sus-Leg on D0", "Exp Vib on F5" usw. zusammenfassen / enthalten) von East West Symphonic Orchestra Platinum Plus benutzen, die keine Modulationssteuerung haben, sondern nur über die Anschlagsstärke funktioneren. Wie programmiere ich Expression Maps für feste Dynamiken wie ppp, pp, p, mp, mf, f, ff, fff für beispielsweise die Master Keyswitch Patches von EW Symphonic Orchestra Platinum Plus.
Außerdem möchte ich wissen, wie ich Crescendi und Descrecendi über Modulation oder Lautstärke Kontrolle zusätzlich zur festen Dynamik (via Anschlgstärke) (ppp, pp, p, mp, mf, ...) programmieren kann und wie ich zwischen einem Patch mit Modulation, Patch mit Anschlagstärke oder sogar Patches mit beiden Optionen wechseln kann. Ich möchte alle drei Möglichkeiten verwenden, Patches nur mit Anschlagstärke, Patches mit Modulation und Patches mit Modulation und Anschlagsstärke.

Ich habe keine Ahnung, wie man Expression Maps überhaupt programmiert. Es scheint sehr kompliziert zu sein.

Das zugrunde liegende Ziel ist es, eine Wiedergabe/Präsentation zu erreichen, die so authentisch und realistisch wie möglich für ein Mockup ist. Denn ich möchte eigene Kompositionen z.B. mal bei Youtube hochladen und da ich kein echtes Orchester zur Verfügung habe, wäre guter Klang schon toll.

Vielleicht ist mein Konzept / meine Idee von Expression Maps falsch. Ich bin also offen für Korrekturen und Vorschläge.


Aufgrund der Komplexität, meines Amateur-Englischs und weil es kein deutschsprachiges Forum gibt, würde ich mich freuen, wenn es möglich ist, eine englische Version und eine deutsche Version zu erhalten.

Vielen Dank für Hilfe und Rat.

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Daniel at Steinberg
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Daniel at Steinberg »

At the moment you cannot easily and directly create expression maps that will trigger different patches based on fixed dynamic levels. With Dorico Pro you could approximate this effect by defining some new playing techniques in Engrave > Playback Techniques that could act as proxies for dynamics and then insert those at the positions where you want to change patches, provided you then also match up those playing techniques in your expression maps, but you cannot create your own playing techniques in Dorico Elements, to that option is not available to you.

If you're looking for a reasonable orchestral sound delivered directly from notation software, you should consider trying NotePerformer from Wallander Instruments. It is essentially "plug and play" with Dorico.

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by mrgothfinn79 »

Just to ask dumb question, where to get expression libraries for garritan ....

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Daniel at Steinberg
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Daniel at Steinberg »

I believe my colleague John has the basics of an expression map for GPO5, which you could enquire about by emailing him at j dot barron at steinberg dot de, but I don't believe expression maps are generally available for the Garritan libraries. They do not appear to be widely used by Dorico users.

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Privid »

Hello,

I'm trying to setup an Expression Map for the Ilya Efimov Bayan accordion sound. The left hand basses work by assigning a different chord type to different octaves of sounds, e.g. C3 is for major sounds, C4 for minor sounds. However, in notation the notes are written in the same octaves, so I just need them to sound differently. I tried to do this by setting up "major" and "minor" playing techniques and assigning a "Transpose" 12 or 24 in the Expression maps but there's no change in playback. Am I missing something?

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Derrek »

How many places do you need to ask for this? The Dorico Team reads all posts here.
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Privid
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Privid »

Derrek wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 4:22 pm
How many places do you need to ask for this? The Dorico Team reads all posts here.
Sorry, I got a little confused by the forum post approval system.

robjohn9999
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by robjohn9999 »

Just curious if anyone has managed an Expression Map for L.A. Scoring Strings?
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Re: Expression Maps

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Privid wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 11:19 am
I'm trying to setup an Expression Map for the Ilya Efimov Bayan accordion sound. The left hand basses work by assigning a different chord type to different octaves of sounds, e.g. C3 is for major sounds, C4 for minor sounds. However, in notation the notes are written in the same octaves, so I just need them to sound differently. I tried to do this by setting up "major" and "minor" playing techniques and assigning a "Transpose" 12 or 24 in the Expression maps but there's no change in playback. Am I missing something?
The minor and major playing techniques will need to be the same mutual exclusion group. To get a better idea of what's happening, look at the playing technique lane in Play Mode. If you hover over each region then it will show you the current techniques at that point.
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Privid »

I'm afraid I still can't make it work. I've attached images of how I'm setting up the Expression map for the playback techniques, having made one for each chord quality. In short, what I want to happen is that if I attach a playback technique of "Accordion - Stradella - Minor" to a note, it will play that note transposed an octave higher, and therefore trigger the appropriate sample in the sound library. Similarly, if I attached something like "Diminished", it would play it two octaves higher which is the region where this sound library triggers diminished chord sounds.
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Brian Roland
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Brian Roland »

Privid wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:23 pm
I'm afraid I still can't make it work. I've attached images of how I'm setting up the Expression map for the playback techniques, having made one for each chord quality. In short, what I want to happen is that if I attach a playback technique of "Accordion - Stradella - Minor" to a note, it will play that note transposed an octave higher, and therefore trigger the appropriate sample in the sound library. Similarly, if I attached something like "Diminished", it would play it two octaves higher which is the region where this sound library triggers diminished chord sounds.

Screenshot 2020-09-07 at 22.21.33.pngScreenshot 2020-09-07 at 22.21.51.png
If I understand your situation, then I fear this is something Dorico currently cannot do on his own.

I'm looking at the expression map builder here, and I do NOT see a way to have Dorico force interval changes through the expression maps in this manner.

There might be some hope however.

It 'might' be possible to build a drum kit map that could be useful, as one can assign each individual line and spaces on a percussion stave to any MIDI destination note-number he likes, but I don't think it would be an ideal situation here. You'd have to find creative alternatives to get the clefs you like, key signatures displayed, etc. Dorico might like to do things with drum staves that just don't seem to cooperate with this type of instrument...but it might be worth a try!

Some questions about your Accordion instrument.

1. Is there a way built into the instrument to transpose the entire keyboard to the left or right? I.E. With HALion SE, one can tap the MIDI tab, and shift the entire keyboard by half steps to the left or right. This doesn't change the loaded sound itself, but it does transpose the incoming MIDI events up or down by a given number of half steps.

2. If you can do this 'keyboard transposition' in the plugin somehow, then the next question is, Does it support multiple MIDI channels in the same instance? I.E. Can you load one instrument into a slot that receives performance data over channel 1, then load another slot that receives it from channel 2, and so forth?

3. If the answer 1 is yes, and 2 is no, can you save the preset and call up different variations using a MIDI program Change? In this case, if it's a fast enough transition, you 'might' be able to get it working in Dorico's current state.

4. If the plugin doesn't support a multi-timberal/channel mode, but you can shift the keyboard, is there way to make a CC or something remote control this keyboard shifting? I.E. In HALion SE, not only do we get that MIDI tab to force entire key-board transposition, we can attach a CC to the controls by 'right clicking one and learning a CC'. From there, Dorico can be taught to use a CC to shift the entire HALion keyboard keyboard around at will....thus emulating a crude from of instrument transposition, which could ultimately be driven by Dorico expression maps.

If your answer to one or all of these questions is NO, then you can supplement Dorico with something like Bidule to either do real time shifting, or to combine multiple instances into a single interface or plugin, and do keyboard shifts on the fly. Bidule is a tool that allows you to redirect and transform any event(s) of a MIDI stream to anything you care host inside it in real time. This includes the ability to perform note or octave transpositions in correlation with something like a key-switch, program change, or a CC event. The paid version of Bidule can actually run as a VSTi plugin inside Dorico and thusly host other plugins from there, while the free Demo would require you run it in Stand Alone mode, and direct a performance stream from Dorico into it via Virtual MIDI ports (I can give you more information about Bidule in IM if you need it).

If your answer to 4, 1 and 2, or 1 and 3 of the questions above is YES then I'd suggest the following.

Load your major sound into the first slot/channel (Or set up a MIDI program change for it). Shift the entire keyboard how ever many octaves you'd like so it matches up with the notes you'd like displayed on the page. I.E. If the major sounds are from C2 - C3, but you really want them to correspond to notes C1-C2 on your stave, then shift it where it should go.

Load your minor sound into the second slot channel (Or set up a MIDI PC for it). Shift the entire keyboard in the instrument's UI however many octaves are required to put these sounds into the same octave as your major slot above.

Repeat this for all of your instant chording variations. Simply keep stacking them in fresh slots of your multi-timberal plugin.

Once you've done that, save a preset in your Plugin. It might come in handy to have it at hand in the future as a preset!

Now, you can teach Dorico to 'channel bounce'. This will require putting sticky nodes (Playing Directions) into practice. You'll also either need some redundant entries in the expression maps, and exclusion groups might help some as well.

(In the case of Question 4 being a YES, then you don't need channel or PC bounces, and instead could substitute whatever CC or other remote event shifts the keyboard up/down however many steps are required to hit the proper octave)

By redundant I mean a progression like:
natural (Channel or PC bounce to the default sound)
natural.major (Channel or PC bounce to the slot with your major chords)
natural.minor (Channel or PC bounce to the slot with your minor chords)
natural.diminished (Channel or PC bounce to the slot with your diminished chords)

For now, avoid assigning things like accent, legato, and so forth in your expression map. You can add them later, but they will then require you do enter more combi techniques throughout your expression map.
I.E.
natural.accent
natural.accent.major
natural.accent.minor

If you have Dorico pro, you could actually build custom playing direction techniques with the node names major, minor, etc. If not, you can borrow some other existing 'playing directions' such as snares on, snares off, etc.

You'll want 'playing directions' rather than 'playing techniques', because they need to be 'sticky' nodes.

By this, I mean a node 'sticks' until you either cancel it out with a pure nat or ord technique, OR, until such time that an exclusion group entry forces it to change or go away.

If you take advantage of this, you can tag the first note of a section/measure/whatever as 'minor', and subsequent notes will continue to trigger your "natural.minor" channel bounce. That 'minor' node will remain until you either set up some exclusion groups to replace it automatically, or insert nat/ord playing techniques to cancel it out (reset the whole node list back to just "natural").

Optionally, you could establish 'playing techniques' instead of 'playing directions'. Playing technques only apply to specific notes of which they are attached (unless your FORCE otherwise deeper in the technique construction tools)! They do NOT carry over once the note they are attached to ends. If you elect to go with this type of technique, then you must tag every single individual note as required to get the sound you desire playing.

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Brian Roland »

Ack, after having typed all that I now see a transpose section in the expression map editor that I'd overlooked before!

Image

I'll have to test it to see if it does anything.

Be back later if it works!

If this works as I think it should, then rather than requiring jumping through all the plugin hoops and channel bounces...you'd simply set this value to force the transposition required for each playing technique!

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Privid »

I've found the Transpose function and enabled it for the minor sound playing technique, i.e. transpose set to "12", but after applying it to a note, it doesn't actually transpose it an octave higher. I'll try the tricks you described above as well ...

EDIT: It seems the problem is that the playing technique simply refuses to apply, and it stays on Natural. I've been able to make it work in a fresh document, but in my existing notation, there seems to be some conflict ...

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Brian Roland »

Privid wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:10 am
I've found the Transpose function and enabled it for the minor sound playing technique, i.e. transpose set to "12", but after applying it to a note, it doesn't actually transpose it an octave higher. I'll try the tricks you described above as well ...

EDIT: It seems the problem is that the playing technique simply refuses to apply, and it stays on Natural. I've been able to make it work in a fresh document, but in my existing notation, there seems to be some conflict ...
I might have been mistaken about being redundant with the natural node.

Give it a try like so.
natural (transposition value)
maj (transposition value)
min (transposition value)
dim (transposition value)

Put all these in an exclusion group.

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by dko22 »

sakasuri wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:03 pm
I’ve been creating expression map for Cinematic Studio Strings. For shorts and especially legato, it would be very useful if in expression maps one could define note start offset (in ms) for each entry.

I can do this manually in properties panel, but I need to always calculate the correct amount of ticks based on the current tempo.

If I could have one wish for the next update, this would be it! :)
I like the sound of the CSS Solo Strings but it seems the company are determined to dissuade you from trying to use it with Dorico or other notation software primarily because of the complex way they implement legato. From your latest experiments, would you say it's more trouble than it's worth or is it already viable with Dorico 3.5 (of course new EM features will be added in time). Do you have any projects which could give an idea of what we might expect? I'm largely interested in the solo strings but orchestral would also be of interest.

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by RedtideMusic »

I'm working with the BBCSO Celeste. In the default map the primary output is set to CC1 and the secondary CC11, as it is for all the rest of BBCSO. However the Celeste, being a keyboard instrument, responds to velocity first and CC11 second in the BBCSO. Changing that however I don't get altered output. By default, for example a pp line with "muted" playing technique triggers the proper switch, and all the notes are set to velocity of 100 (per the velocity lane) which is really banging the Celeste. I'd expect in this case that the pp volume would output a quieter velocity, but not so. The only way to get quieter output is to pull all the velocities down manually.

How is this supposed to work? I'm expecting that while the created note has a velocity of 100, that the expression should bring in the volume of pp to tone it down, and output some combination of velocity and CC11 to do it. Note that for this instrument velocity != CC11. Velocity actually triggers a different patch layer (e.g. a hard hit really rings the celeste), where CC11 probably is just an algorithmic volume.
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by dko22 »

bit lost here. You can change the default CC1 to velocity if you want and it shows velocities pp = 24, p=41 f=87 as an example. The dynamic contrasts are higher using velocity than CC1 - excessively so in my opinion which is why the default has been mapped to CC1 which gives more natural dynamic scaling. However as the celesta does respond to velocity you can fine tune the CC results using velocity -- that's how I would do it. I don't think I've ever needed to change the CC11 value with that instrument.

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