Reaching out to our Finale- (and Sibelius-) using friends.

Discussions about our next-generation scoring application, Dorico.
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pianoleo
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Re: Reaching out to our Finale- (and Sibelius-) using friends.

Post by pianoleo »

1. The development team here don’t announce things until they’re ready. String harmonic playback will arrive when it arrives (and there are laborious workarounds if you really need it)
2. You can start with an empty kit and then add the instruments you want.

Do put the time in with the Dorico trial, and do ask questions here. Sibelius is arguably as hampered by old code and old thinking as Finale is, whereas Dorico really isn’t.
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Re: Reaching out to our Finale- (and Sibelius-) using friends.

Post by dko22 »

As one who has just recently taken the plunge and switched from Sibelius to Dorico, I can only say that -- even at this early stage -- I feel for the first time that I am more in control of a notation software rather than the other way round. The reason is simply that Dorico feels as if it has been designed from the base upwards in a logical fashion rather than evolving rather haphazardly which is understandable as VST's for instance didn't even exist in the earlier days of Finale and Sibelius. There are things missing or only half developed and one might question a few decisions but basically the overall concept seems sound to me and it's primarily just a matter of memorizing all the shortcuts for an efficient workflow.

On the specifics of string harmonic playback, it seems that it works, at least in a basic fashion, (with VSL) and the only missing articulation which is urgently required is a proper glissando when already supported by the VST as is the case with Noteperformer among others. With this exception, although I may be missing something, I don't see any particular way in which NP works better under Sibelius than Dorico. And yes -- they have fixed that anaemic Bartok snap pizz.
Last edited by dko22 on Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Daniel at Steinberg
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Re: Reaching out to our Finale- (and Sibelius-) using friends.

Post by Daniel at Steinberg »

Welcome to the forum, davidindiana!
davidindiana wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:44 pm
1. correct playback of string harmonics Any idea when Dorico will do this?
For the sake of accuracy I think it's only fair to point out that it's NotePerformer implementing playback of harmonics in Sibelius, not Sibelius itself! Dorico 3.0 introduced the best semantic support for both natural and artificial harmonic of any notation software, and playback is not going to be far behind, though you're right that it's not yet implemented in Dorico.
davidindiana wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:44 pm
2. adjusting percussion mapping to associate certain sounds with certain staff locations. Took much longer in Dorico. Deleting unused instruments in the percussion kit that had loaded took a long time!
This is always a complex area, but I'd be interested to hear if you have any specific suggestions about how we could make this easier. Perhaps you would have been better off starting with an empty percussion kit and adding the instruments you wanted rather than working your way backwards from one of the existing ones?

To answer your more general question, Dorico lacks some of the tools you have in Finale for doing really wacky things, because we're trying to approach the whole world of music notation using a semantics-first approach, which means that some things you can fake up using creative solutions using or abusing Finale's tools are a bit harder (or in some cases impractical or even impossible) to do in Dorico. But I hope you will find that you will save so much time compared to all of the fussy and repetitive work you had to do in Finale that Dorico takes care of you automatically that you will still come out considerably ahead.

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Re: Reaching out to our Finale- (and Sibelius-) using friends.

Post by pianoleo »

Daniel at Steinberg wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:19 am
But I hope you will find that you will save so much time compared to all of the fussy and repetitive work you had to do in Finale that Dorico takes care of you automatically that you will still come out considerably ahead.
benwiggy certainly made this point just yesterday, on Facebook.
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Re: Reaching out to our Finale- (and Sibelius-) using friends.

Post by Vaughan Schlepp »

Many of us here are [ex] Finale users. I've used it for around 30 years, as well, but now I mainly use it to export a file to XML to be able to port it over to Dorico. I can safely say that Dorico is well worth the time investment. However... just to set the record straight, Finale's playback was recognised to be one of its better features, even compared to Sibelius', and NotePerformer works with Finale, too.
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Re: Reaching out to our Finale- (and Sibelius-) using friends.

Post by davidindiana »

Wow - so great to get some quick responses to specific questions. Thank you to all who responded!

Daniel:
1. string harmonic playback. Thanks for the clarification; I'll write Note Performer! But good to know Dorico is on the case as well.

2. Percussion. I fully admit to not ever having the patience to truly understand and get into extensive work with percussion mapping and playback in Finale. I basically rarely used playback since I found it so far off without a lot of fussing around, and I wanted to just keep composing. Then, Note Performer came along and my students started bringing in amazing midi realizations. When recently trying Sibelius, though I had to learn to hit a couple specific buttons in some huge dialog boxes, there was then a quick and intuitive way to associate a location on staff with a specific sound, which was refreshing. I'm sure you are right that starting from scratch would have been a better approach to building a kit. My (perhaps flawed) way of exploring first Sibelius and now Dorico is with my current project, a flute concerto that I want to make revisions to, so I'm working in a file that started as an XML export from Finale. (I want to learn quickly whether or not I'll be able to do the things I need to). When removing instruments from the kit in Dorico, each deletion took a surprising amount of time, like 10-15 seconds. I'm not clear why Dorico uses that graphical interface (which seems an analog to a staff) instead of a regular staff (well, some kind of staff...1-5 or more lines). I'd prefer to be choosing the sound and notehead in association to how it will look in the score.

In a quick poll, most of my department is interested in getting Dorico 3 and giving it a try. We have at least one student fully committed to Dorico already. It will be interesting to see where this goes. Thanks for the work! I guess I'll need to get the license dongle...that is a little inconvenient, honestly. I need to use my software on three machines: desktops at home and school and laptop.

Vaugn:
My experience with Finale playback has been a mixed bag. At the moment, I'm mainly going by playback of the flute concerto I'm working on, comparing playback using Note Performer in all three programs and trying to decide which program I want to use going forward. Finale's result is by far the more clunky and unmusical, especially regarding hairpins and slurring in strings. Yes, perhaps I can spend the time to sort that out, but this is exactly what I don't want to do; I want it to just work and let me compose.
Side note: I DID just pay yet another $100 for FInale 26 on Black Friday so I can finally at least see my scores in hi-res (perhaps briefly, while exporting....). I've had to run Finale in low-res ever since buying my 5k iMac like THREE YEARS ago! :).

Again, thank you.
Last edited by davidindiana on Mon Dec 09, 2019 5:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Reaching out to our Finale- (and Sibelius-) using friends.

Post by pianoleo »

The awesome thing about percussion representation in Dorico is that you can rapidly switch between a five-line stave, a grid or single-line staves each holding a single instrument. The benefit to this way of doing it is that you can have one representation in the score and a different one in the part, if you so wish. The reason that Setup mode can take time over these sorts of calculations is that, in real time, it's recalculating all of the score and part layouts that are currently open. There isn't much you can do about that, except to bear with it. In the grand scheme of things, hopefully adding and removing percussion instruments from players is a relatively small proportion of the time any individual user spends with Dorico.
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