Very sadly I will never purchase Dorico

Discussions about our next-generation scoring application, Dorico.
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Bob Morabito
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Re: Very sadly I will never purchase Dorico

Post by Bob Morabito » Sun Jun 26, 2016 2:01 pm

Im not sure of the differences with a Steinberg key versus an Ilok dongle--but with the Ilok, it only needs to be physically inserted into the computer's USB port when starting up the program, then it can be removed. At least thats how it works with the two licenses I have on it now, and I had never known this til the Synthogy (Ivory II) people told me..

Yes this is a PITA, but if the Steinberg key is similar, and only has to be in for when the program starts up, it greatly reduces the chances of breakage, and doesnt really tie up a USB slot, etc.

So must the Steinberg key stay in the USB slot for as long as we're using the program?

Thanks Bob

PS If it counts for anything I'd ALSO like to see no key/dongle being used for Dorico.

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Re: Very sadly I will never purchase Dorico

Post by DG » Sun Jun 26, 2016 3:46 pm

I don't know how Dorico is coded, but with other SB products the key needs to be in not only for startup but for operation as well. I've just come back from a session. Took the dongle with me. Brought it home. No big deal.

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Re: Very sadly I will never purchase Dorico

Post by wcreed » Sun Jun 26, 2016 4:49 pm

Someone should make a robust little box with a USB hub inside to protect dongles. Just plug the box into your system to connect the (very safe) dongles.
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Re: Very sadly I will never purchase Dorico

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Mon Jun 27, 2016 9:50 am

One tactic that I have seen for protecting USB licenser keys is to use a very short USB extension cable of just a couple of inches in length. This protects the USB key from being snapped off if the side of the laptop is struck somehow.

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Re: Very sadly I will never purchase Dorico

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Mon Jun 27, 2016 12:06 pm

I have just posted a statement concerning exactly how the licensing for Dorico 1.0 will work:

viewtopic.php?f=246&t=99045

That announcement topic is locked, so we welcome further comments and discussion here or in other new threads.

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Re: Very sadly I will never purchase Dorico

Post by vintagevibe » Mon Jun 27, 2016 6:39 pm

Daniel at Steinberg wrote:I have just posted a statement concerning exactly how the licensing for Dorico 1.0 will work:

viewtopic.php?f=246&t=99045

That announcement topic is locked, so we welcome further comments and discussion here or in other new threads.
I have to work on my laptop for teaching and my desktop for composing. So you are saying that the only way to do this is to use a dongle? And if the dongle is lost, stolen or broken (very real possibility in a school) I have to just stop all of my work until I get a new dongle and get it authorized?
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Re: Very sadly I will never purchase Dorico

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Mon Jun 27, 2016 6:48 pm

vintagevibe wrote:I have to work on my laptop for teaching and my desktop for composing. So you are saying that the only way to do this is to use a dongle?
I'm afraid that the answer to that, at least for the time being, is "yes", unless you are willing and able to purchase a second license. You will at least need the USB-eLicenser in order to transfer the license between your two computers, even if the USB-eLicenser is not required once the license has been transferred to another computer.

We are not under any illusions that this is the perfect solution for all of our potential customers. As I wrote in the post I linked to, this is the solution that our management have decided upon based on the current capabilities of our eLicenser technology.

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Re: Very sadly I will never purchase Dorico

Post by Romantique Tp » Mon Jun 27, 2016 6:53 pm

vintagevibe wrote: I have to work on my laptop for teaching and my desktop for composing. So you are saying that the only way to do this is to use a dongle? And if the dongle is lost, stolen or broken (very real possibility in a school) I have to just stop all of my work until I get a new dongle and get it authorized?
You can keep a backup dongle at home and/or a secure place at the place where you work. If you lose your dongle, just connect your backup dongle to a computer with internet access, go to your MySteinberg and activate Zero Downtime. You'll immediately be able to continue using Dorico.

This will blacklist the old dongle, so if someone stole it they're stuck with a useless purple pendrive.
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Re: Very sadly I will never purchase Dorico

Post by scoredfilms » Mon Jun 27, 2016 9:32 pm

What a terrible disappointment and such an unnecessary one. Well, maybe Dorico will lead as a new standard for a few years while someone else disrupts the market by listening to users more effectively. Who knows how this will play out? I only know what played out for me recently. I left Cubase a few months ago. I will buy Dorico cause it has promise. But v2 will depend on whether someone else hasn't filled the same need with a better user experience. If it wasn't obvious, having to deal with the eLicenser nightmare is a big factor for me. As someone with serious attention management issues, I have panicked too many times over fears of loosing a decade of my constant savings to this practice. I eventually gave up. Now, I only use it for a few things and I hope to replace them. I hardwired my life to not go through that anymore as much as I can afford to avoid. If you want Dorico to last, give me a reason to be loyal to it. Otherwise I'll go with the best standing offer, which most certainly will change soon enough. The iPad 1 came out in 2010 and in only a couple years was disrupting markets. Steinberg is choosing to gamble Dorico on the only practices it knows. That's not a recipe I trust to last. I'll bite in round one. But I suspect this will only usher in more disruption than has already been seen. To me, that is seriously unfortunate.

There's my input. Take it or leave it.

With respect,
Sean

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Re: Very sadly I will never purchase Dorico

Post by vintagevibe » Tue Jun 28, 2016 1:22 am

Romantique Tp wrote:
You can keep a backup dongle at home and/or a secure place at the place where you work. If you lose your dongle, just connect your backup dongle to a computer with internet access, go to your MySteinberg and activate Zero Downtime. You'll immediately be able to continue using Dorico.

This will blacklist the old dongle, so if someone stole it they're stuck with a useless purple pendrive.

This is for one time only per Steinberg. That's not a solution for someone who carries a laptop to many different rooms and situations throughout the day. If I had to have a USB dongle sticking out of my laptop everytime I need to work it wouldn't last a week.
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Re: Very sadly I will never purchase Dorico

Post by vintagevibe » Tue Jun 28, 2016 1:31 am

Daniel at Steinberg wrote:
vintagevibe wrote:I have to work on my laptop for teaching and my desktop for composing. So you are saying that the only way to do this is to use a dongle?
I'm afraid that the answer to that, at least for the time being, is "yes", unless you are willing and able to purchase a second license. You will at least need the USB-eLicenser in order to transfer the license between your two computers, even if the USB-eLicenser is not required once the license has been transferred to another computer.

We are not under any illusions that this is the perfect solution for all of our potential customers. As I wrote in the post I linked to, this is the solution that our management have decided upon based on the current capabilities of our eLicenser technology.

I'm really sad to hear that. I depend on notation and this arrangement is unworkable for me. Dorico may end up being the best notation ever but if I can't use it I, of course, won't purchase it. Given that the crossgrade price is temporary I may never own it. I was told two years ago that Steinberg was working on a different solution to dongles but that, apparently, still does not exist. Is there any tangible reason to believe that it will ever exist? Even EastWest has a no-dongle solution! I will stay with Sibelius.
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Re: Very sadly I will never purchase Dorico

Post by Peter Roos » Tue Jun 28, 2016 1:52 am

Hi Daniel:

A few follow up questions on the licensing:

1. Does the eLicenser dongle have to be plugged during the entire time that Dorico is running, or only at the startup? (With Pro Tools it used to be only at startup, but it now has to be connected all the time)

2. The decision to only have one license at a time, is that a technical restriction of the eLicensing system, a business decision, or a little bit of both?

I already have 3 different dongles -- one for Pro Tools 10/11 (and the Complete Production Toolkit), one for all my Eastwest libraries (several dozen), one for Waves plugins ... not looking forward to adding yet another dongle. Aside from the risk of losing / breaking, it sticks out like a sore thumb from devices like the Microsoft Surface Pro.

Thanks!

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Re: Very sadly I will never purchase Dorico

Post by wcreed » Tue Jun 28, 2016 2:12 am

Man, what a lot of hot air... (not you Peter)
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Re: Very sadly I will never purchase Dorico

Post by scoredfilms » Tue Jun 28, 2016 3:21 am

I'll try not to fuel a fire here, but rather to persuade Steinberg to change their minds. This is a very honest dose of my perspective. It's respectful. But I'm not holding back. This is how I feel about the licensing schemes employed by Steinberg:

The future

The Surface Book doesn't even have a USB port on the tablet. The world is moving away from ports and moving toward wireless. In 2010 the iPad was introduced. It disrupted several markets very quickly. If anyone thinks it will be long before dongles are dead, they are fooling themselves. How will dongles survive the day we get rid of ports altogether?

Even now, Pro Tools and Cubase are starting to see disruption by another DAW that is gaining market momentum. I won't name that DAW out of respect. But the market is an objective climate and will speak for itself in the end. You really have to see what's out your window for what it is. We can either move with the times or stay put and let the world move on without us. It's certain that dongles are dead or will be soon enough. But taking a baby step with a software iLicenser is simply not enough.

Consider this-

I can install my DAW on 5 machines and move seamlessly between them. Think about that from my point of view for a minute. Steinberg, tell me... please find a reason... how could a move to Cubase from what I currently have possibly improve my user experience? I'm a reasonable human being. If you can name one reason, I'll be interested.

What I'm really saying by that is that for Sibelius, Finale, and Notion users, as well as many others... how can Dorico even stand a chance? Don't get me wrong, I want it to succeed because I like what I'm seeing. So I'm not saying Dorico should fail. I want it to succeed. I'm on your side here. But let me be clear... I like what I'm seeing out of London, just not Hamburg.

Light-hearted nonsense

Before anyone sees more in my comment than I've actually said... I love Germany (people, culture, music, and especially the food... oh man, the food). If it weren't for family, I'd go back and probably live there. I swear it must be in my blood. But Hamburg is gambling Dorico's future based on an old and well-hated idea. And that worries me a bit. Steinberg should celebrate the success and hard work of good people. But whichever person decided that the eLicenser was a good thing... well I'd hand them a wad of cash to survive with and then wish a good life for them in another company. Every company makes mistakes. What sets you apart is what you do about them. If you want to keep a good ship sailing, it has to be a good ship. That means cutting out a few bad ideas from time to time.

I wish Steinberg the best. The best comes from listening and acting, not sitting around waiting for users to change their minds. Please listen.

Cheers,
Sean

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Re: Very sadly I will never purchase Dorico

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Tue Jun 28, 2016 9:52 am

Peter Roos wrote:1. Does the eLicenser dongle have to be plugged during the entire time that Dorico is running, or only at the startup? (With Pro Tools it used to be only at startup, but it now has to be connected all the time)
By default, Dorico does *not* use the USB-eLicenser. By default, it uses the Soft-eLicenser. This means that you do not have to connect the USB-eLicenser at all. If you buy the download version of Dorico, you will not even receive a USB-eLicenser: that will only be included with the boxed version.

You only need the USB-eLicenser if you need to run Dorico on more than one computer. You then transfer your license to the USB-eLicenser, and if you want to continue running Dorico on more than one computer, you leave the license there, in which case, yes, the USB-eLicenser needs to be connected for the entire time the application is running, not just at start-up.

If you want to transfer the license from one computer to another more permanently, you only need the USB-eLicenser as the temporary repository for the license: you transfer it from one computer to the USB-eLicenser, then plug that USB-eLicenser into another computer, and then transfer it back from the USB-eLicenser to that computer. Thereafter you no longer require the USB-eLicenser on that computer.

It's worth pointing out that the transfer of a license from a USB-eLicenser back to becoming a Soft-eLicenser is not currently possible, but it is anticipated that it will be possible by the time of Dorico's release, or shortly thereafter.
Peter Roos wrote:2. The decision to only have one license at a time, is that a technical restriction of the eLicensing system, a business decision, or a little bit of both?
It's a little bit of both. The Soft-eLicenser from a technical perspective does only allow activation on a single computer, and there is no current capability to allow more than one computer for a single activation code. We considered supplying more than one activation code with each Dorico license, but this opens up the possibilities for unscrupulous people to share or resell their second activation code, which may seem far-fetched but in fact happens all the time (compare, for example, the large secondary market in Steam keys in the PC/Mac gaming market). The solution our management have decided upon is the best balance available between our business needs and our customer needs, based on the current capabilities of our licensing technology – with the emphasis on the words "current capabilities."

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Re: Very sadly I will never purchase Dorico

Post by Peter Roos » Wed Jun 29, 2016 12:20 am

Thanks Daniel --- one more follow-up question: how easy / difficult do you expect it will be to move the license from the USB e-Licenser to a Soft-eLicenser, and back, and do you expect that that can be done any time, 24/7? I'm thinking of the way that licenses can be moved from one iLok to another (I know the analogy is imperfect because iLok licenses are always tied to the physical dongle).

If it's really easy, then for all practical purposes this would be a practical solution for most people who have to switch back / forth between two or more computers, and who don't want to leave the USB stick in the device that they are using.

For example: Dorico is installed on a desktop computer, but occasionally for road trips you may want to move the license to a Microsoft Surface Pro. But you don't want to keep the dongle in the Surface Pro for whatever reason (it might get stolen, lost, break, you need the USB port for something else, etc).

This video seems pretty straightforward to me:

http://www.steinberg.net/en/company/tec ... enser.html. (Yes, I know they mention the transfer to the USB dongle is a one way street; apparently that may change).

It still wouldn't solve the issue of people using a device with no USB port but I guess you can't solve everything at once. Scoredfilms mentioned the surface book tablet; but I wonder how useful Dorico is without a regular computer keyboard in terms of how to enter notes, setting up scores etc.; my understanding at this point is probably not very much. But that's a bit of a side note for this particular model of computer.

Thanks!

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Re: Very sadly I will never purchase Dorico

Post by scoredfilms » Wed Jun 29, 2016 12:30 am

Daniel at Steinberg wrote:We considered supplying more than one activation code with each Dorico license, but this opens up the possibilities for unscrupulous people to share or resell their second activation code...
Image

If the only way to protect your own bank account is to put up a sign that says "our needs come before our customers' needs", then the company is looking at its business the wrong way. All but 2 DAWs are dongle free and everyone else even allows multiple installs. 2 of them allow 2. 6 of them allow 3, 5 or unlimited. So quite frankly, the justification offered here just doesn't hold up on that chart.

I hope you guys are working on a different solution. Otherwise Dorico will be the first and only notation program to tether users in a way that users simply aren't happy about.

-Sean

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Re: Very sadly I will never purchase Dorico

Post by wcreed » Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:37 am

If you did a chart of which ones get pirated, the Ys and Ns would be reversed.
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Re: Very sadly I will never purchase Dorico

Post by scoredfilms » Wed Jun 29, 2016 2:55 am

wcreed wrote:If you did a chart of which ones get pirated, the Ys and Ns would be reversed.
Ha ha ha! Funny point, but not exactly accurate...

1 - Google says they've both been pirated. I trust the all-knowing Google.
2 - Where there's a will, there's a way. Security is a myth.
3 - Piracy, while not ideal, also combats disruptive economics. Microsoft, Adobe, and many others all proved that years ago.

The real question is if you're making your product good enough that everyone is using it, legit or otherwise. I suggest getting more people using your software will do you better in the end. And if my suggestions don't have any weight here, then I'll just keep using the DAW I moved to on my desktop, laptop, and tablet and even a couple extra computers just for the fun of it. Because hey, I can. ;)

-Sean

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Re: Very sadly I will never purchase Dorico

Post by ultradust » Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:33 am

wcreed wrote:Someone should make a robust little box with a USB hub inside to protect dongles. Just plug the box into your system to connect the (very safe) dongles.
They did:
http://www.roklocker.com/Roklocker/index.html

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Re: Very sadly I will never purchase Dorico

Post by Peter Roos » Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:59 am

Sean:

I think you have to appreciate that Steinberg has had a system in place of protecting its software against piracy, that was here well before the arrival of Dorico.

It depends on a combination of elicense software and hardware. In itself we can all agree that protection against piracy is a reasonable objective. I am not sure whether there is any point in arguing which is technically the best protection against piracy. I am not not a software piracy protection expert, and presumably neither are you, but correct me if I am wrong.

Yes, I would love for Dorico to adopt the "Reaper" system -- which is that essentially there is no copyright protection system (other than a nagging screen) --- and leave it up to the user to do the honorable thing. But that is not the world we live in.

I'm just interested in finding a workable solution where people can have Dorico on more than one system, preferably without having to have the hardware dongle plugged in the whole time.

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Re: Very sadly I will never purchase Dorico

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Wed Jun 29, 2016 9:14 am

Peter Roos wrote:...one more follow-up question: how easy / difficult do you expect it will be to move the license from the USB e-Licenser to a Soft-eLicenser, and back, and do you expect that that can be done any time, 24/7?
I would expect it to be done in exactly the same way that a Soft-eLicenser is moved to a USB-eLicenser today: you would quit Dorico, run the eLicenser Control Center application, plug in your USB-eLicenser, and then drag the Dorico license from the USB-eLicenser to the Soft-eLicenser. I believe this process would require an Internet connection so that our central activation server can be made aware of the transfer – I will find this out from our eLicenser team. But there is no reason to believe that it would not be possible any time, 24/7.

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Re: Very sadly I will never purchase Dorico

Post by vintagevibe » Wed Jun 29, 2016 5:34 pm

Peter Roos wrote:Sean:

I think you have to appreciate that Steinberg has had a system in place of protecting its software against piracy, that was here well before the arrival of Dorico.

Totally understood and appreciated but... it is an archaic system. I purchased Cubase Elements to use on my laptop because it doesn't use a dongle. (I have to be just do without the advanced features of Cubase Pro). I just purchased a new laptop and am going through the usual nightmare with support trying to get it authorized. I've been working on it for days and still can't use it. NO OTHER SOFTWARE package that I use gives me this grief. Steinbergs system is a terrible one. With Native Instruments, for example, their software takes care of everything. Cakewalk Sonar (which I had to install since I still can't use my Cubase Elements) has a software manager that takes care of everything. No grief and no downtime. Steinberg is using last century's technology and it's customers are paying the price. Why does Steinberg remain so far behind? This is an honest question that I would love an answer to.
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Re: Very sadly I will never purchase Dorico

Post by davemacdo » Wed Jun 29, 2016 5:38 pm

The thing I find most frustrating here is that Steinberg seems to be willing to throw out the convenience of honest users in exchange for the appearance of security. As has already been pointed out, there is not truly bulletproof security here. If an unscrupulous user wants to break Steinberg's system, they will. So the only thing that is certain, is that the new system will be a significant burden to Dorico users and a significant barrier to adoption by new users.

I know many people hate subscriptions and continuous checks, but if there was a "Cloud eLicenser" option that required my computer to check in with a server once every 10 days or something, I would _much_ rather have that than any of the backwards-looking solutions proposed so far.

This whole thing is just extraordinarily frustrating to me. And it's only _more_ frustrating when the application I read about on the blog is so compelling. (I think this is really the source of the ire on this board. People are really really excited about Dorico, and then the licensing scheme comes as an unexpect FU/gut-punch at the end.) I know Daniel and the Dorico team don't make these kinds of decisions, but they're the only people we can complain to.

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Re: Very sadly I will never purchase Dorico

Post by Peter Roos » Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:19 pm

vintagevibe wrote:
Peter Roos wrote:Sean:

I think you have to appreciate that Steinberg has had a system in place of protecting its software against piracy, that was here well before the arrival of Dorico.

Totally understood and appreciated but... it is an archaic system. I purchased Cubase Elements to use on my laptop because it doesn't use a dongle. (I have to be just do without the advanced features of Cubase Pro). I just purchased a new laptop and am going through the usual nightmare with support trying to get it authorized. I've been working on it for days and still can't use it. NO OTHER SOFTWARE package that I use gives me this grief. Steinbergs system is a terrible one. With Native Instruments, for example, their software takes care of everything. Cakewalk Sonar (which I had to install since I still can't use my Cubase Elements) has a software manager that takes care of everything. No grief and no downtime. Steinberg is using last century's technology and it's customers are paying the price. Why does Steinberg remain so far behind? This is an honest question that I would love an answer to.
Pro Tool's iLok is a hardware based dongle as well ... as does East West and many more companies. There are many people that hate iLok or any dongle with a vengeance which is why they won't use any software that uses it ... so I understand where you are coming from.

iLok is actually a bit more onerous than the Steinberg eLicenser since, per Daniel's post above, you'll likely be able to move the license back and forth between the software version and the hardware UBS dongle. By contrast, the iLok has to be physically inserted into your computer all the time Pro Tools is running.

A couple of years ago PACE (the company that developed the iLok) had a major technical glitch involving one of the updates to their software, as a result of which anyone who had just gone through the upgrade couldn't use Pro Tools for many days ... can you imagine the effect that had on e.g. professional recording studios that are fully booked, and that have to turn away clients because they are dead in the water? A major disaster ...

Anyways, copyright protection is here to stay and nothing is perfect; we'll just have to find a way to live with it. Right now the way the eLicening system is likely going to work for Dorico is fine with me.

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