Questions about editing/auditioning piano chords/chord notes

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FlowerPower
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Questions about editing/auditioning piano chords/chord notes

Post by FlowerPower » Mon May 23, 2016 11:15 pm

Here are a couple pf questions about how Dorico works when editing polyphonic material.

What happens if you select a with the mouse and edit it's pitch on a piano track (displayed, of course, with both bass and treble clef)? Will you hear each edit in context (meaning that all the other simultaneous chord notes will be heard for each step you transpose ) - which is what I'd prefer in most cases, or will you hear only the notes in the same clef as the note you edit?

Likewise - what happens if you execute the same edit with key commands?

If one cannot hear the full chord when editing a chord note or melodic note, one won't get the audible feedback one needs to decide how the edit will sound like without rewinding and start playback from before the edit, which is a hassle if one spends multiple hours a day on such edits... which leads to the third question:

If you have piano track consisting of multiple, adjacent chords, when happens if you use Dorico's "Go to next" key command? Will you hear one of the notes in the next chord only (which of course is something one sometimes want) or will you hear the full piano chord (in both bass and treble clef) - which is something one often wants. IMO both these "behaviours" are needed (many times a day) for people who compose and edit "with their ears".

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Re: Questions about editing/auditioning piano chords/chord n

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Tue May 24, 2016 12:15 am

Dorico doesn't play anything back yet, so this is entirely speculative at this point, but the plan is that you will hear whatever you edit sounded out to you. So if you select a whole chord (e.g. by clicking its stem) you'll hear those notes sound together (but not other notes sounding either in other voices on the same instrument, or in other instruments, as they're not selected); if you transpose that selected chord, you'll hear all of the notes sound at each step, because they are all still selected.

Selecting and transposing a single note within a chord in a voice is an interesting case. I think it would probably be more useful always to play the whole chord, even when only a single note is selected, since if you are transposing or repitching that selected note, you probably want to hear how the overall chord sounds.

Likewise, if you hop left and right between notes and chords at successive rhythmic positions, I think it makes sense to sound out all of the notes in that voice at that rhythmic position, even if technically when you hop the selection, only one notehead within the chord will normally end up selected.

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Re: Questions about editing/auditioning piano chords/chord n

Post by Rob Tuley » Tue May 24, 2016 2:08 am

On the other hand, a consistent rule like "you always hear exactly what is selected, and nothing else" might satisfy the "principle of least surprise" better.

But if somebody is noodling around trying to find "the lost chord", I suppose they would want to hear the whole chord, not the one note they just noodled. One size might not fit all!

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Re: Questions about editing/auditioning piano chords/chord n

Post by steve_1 » Tue May 24, 2016 2:26 am

Perhaps a customizable setting when all is said and done? Give people the power within the program to choose how they want this to behave. Cut down on the complaints if they can have it both ways.

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Re: Questions about editing/auditioning piano chords/chord n

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Tue May 24, 2016 9:04 am

We definitely believe in providing options where they make sense, but please bear in mind that no option is free to implement. Everything takes time, both to develop and to test. So if we don't have every possible combination of options to please every possible customer at the time of the initial release I hope you will remember that.

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Re: Questions about editing/auditioning piano chords/chord n

Post by Knut Nergaard » Tue May 24, 2016 9:23 am

Having an option is of course nice, but I think it makes much more sense to have the whole chord sound when moving one of it's voices. This is also the way Finale behaves (and Sibelius too, as far as I remember).

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Re: Questions about editing/auditioning piano chords/chord n

Post by FlowerPower » Tue May 24, 2016 12:13 pm

Daniel at Steinberg wrote: the plan is that you will hear whatever you edit sounded out to you. So if you select a whole chord (e.g. by clicking its stem) you'll hear those notes sound together
In piano chords, one usually cannot select the whole chord by selecting the stems, becasue there are usually two stems (one in each clef), or eg one stem in the treble clef, plus a single note in the bass clef. There are of course other possible combinations as well....

...which leads to another question: When does Dorico (or any DAW/score program) see a group of notes as a chord? If they are entered using step input/typing/with a mouse, it's easy: they all start at the same time position. But what if they are recorded in real time, using a MIDI keyboard?


Selecting and transposing a single note within a chord in a voice is an interesting case. I think it would probably be more useful always to play the whole chord, even when only a single note is selected, since if you are transposing or repitching that selected note, you probably want to hear how the overall chord sounds.
I agree, and therefore, it would IMO be a mistake to only play the notes attached to one of the stems (the one in either bass or treble clef).
Likewise, if you hop left and right between notes and chords at successive rhythmic positions, I think it makes sense to sound out all of the notes in that voice at that rhythmic position, even if technically when you hop the selection, only one notehead within the chord will normally end up selected.
I totally agree.

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Re: Questions about editing/auditioning piano chords/chord n

Post by FlowerPower » Tue May 24, 2016 12:15 pm

Knut Nergaard wrote:Having an option is of course nice, but I think it makes much more sense to have the whole chord sound when moving one of it's voices.
Absolutely!

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Re: Questions about editing/auditioning piano chords/chord n

Post by steve_1 » Wed May 25, 2016 4:12 am

Daniel at Steinberg wrote:We definitely believe in providing options where they make sense, but please bear in mind that no option is free to implement. Everything takes time, both to develop and to test. So if we don't have every possible combination of options to please every possible customer at the time of the initial release I hope you will remember that.
Of course! ;)

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Re: Questions about editing/auditioning piano chords/chord n

Post by FlowerPower » Mon Nov 28, 2016 9:03 am

Daniel at Steinberg wrote:Dorico doesn't play anything back yet, so this is entirely speculative at this point, but the plan is that you will hear whatever you edit sounded out to you. So if you select a whole chord (e.g. by clicking its stem) you'll hear those notes sound together (but not other notes sounding either in other voices on the same instrument, or in other instruments, as they're not selected); if you transpose that selected chord, you'll hear all of the notes sound at each step, because they are all still selected.

Selecting and transposing a single note within a chord in a voice is an interesting case. I think it would probably be more useful always to play the whole chord, even when only a single note is selected, since if you are transposing or repitching that selected note, you probably want to hear how the overall chord sounds.

Likewise, if you hop left and right between notes and chords at successive rhythmic positions, I think it makes sense to sound out all of the notes in that voice at that rhythmic position, even if technically when you hop the selection, only one notehead within the chord will normally end up selected.
Hi again, are there any news about this? I think I read that Dorico now supports playback of selected notes, which brings back the question about what happens if users on a piano track use a key command to go to the next note, and that next note is a part of a chord?

Will they hear the full chord (ideally in both clefs, of course), or only in one clef at a time, like in Sibelius? (Or only one note at a time?)

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Re: Questions about editing/auditioning piano chords/chord n

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Wed Nov 30, 2016 12:27 am

When you navigate one note at a time with the arrow keys, then you'll hear only the notehead(s) that are selected, so you won't hear any notes in the chord that are not selected, and nor will you hear the notes from other staves, even the other staff of the piano.

We do hope to add a kind of scrub playback feature in due course that will allow you to hear everything sounding at the position of the playhead when playback is stopped, but I'm not sure exactly when we'll be able to get to this.

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Re: Questions about editing/auditioning piano chords/chord n

Post by FlowerPower » Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:59 am

Daniel at Steinberg wrote:When you navigate one note at a time with the arrow keys, then you'll hear only the notehead(s) that are selected, so you won't hear any notes in the chord that are not selected, and nor will you hear the notes from other staves, even the other staff of the piano.
Too bad, because that was something I found extremely useful in Sibelius.
I understand the need for a simpler solution in the direction of what you mentioned, but is it possible to also add a different key command which is more... chord oriented (in the sense that it would be some kind of "go to next" variation, but which played all the notes in a chord if there was one?

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Re: Questions about editing/auditioning piano chords/chord n

Post by mipi » Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:08 pm

Such functionality would be extremely helpful. Would be not a best solution to have a possibility to select in preferences an option you prefer? Play single selected note in chord or play all notes in chord while clicking?

In Sibelius you select a note, press right (or left) arrow in order to check by ear if there are some mistakes or not. In such way you can "play" a single part as slow as you wisch. Come back and go forward again. Often it takes significantly less time, then analysing it just visually.

As I try to do it in Dorico, everything is fine till the selection comes to the chord - then Dorico plays each note in a chord separately, then moves to the next one..In some cases it could be useful, but I would be very happy if I could choose - to here a whole chord or each note separately..

Of course it will take time to think, to implement and to test. I do not expect it soon. Any way would be a great feature:)

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Re: Questions about editing/auditioning piano chords/chord n

Post by musicmaven » Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:17 pm

Perhaps if one could hold a modifier key to hear the chords, and without the modifier one would hear the notes separately. Another point..... I've experienced that with most zoom levels it's a bit difficult to click on that thin little stem. :)
Dorico 1.1.0, Finale 1.0 through Finale 97, Sibelius 2-7.5, Notion 5.2, MuseScore 2, iMac, MacBook Air, Oxygen 61

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Re: Questions about editing/auditioning piano chords/chord n

Post by mipi » Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:35 pm

I think the best solution would be some option in preferences. You have to be able to choose some particular note in a chord, but it is all about a playback ONLY. I would personally chose an option when Dorico plays all notes together..For sure

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Re: Questions about editing/auditioning piano chords/chord n

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Sun Jun 11, 2017 12:06 am

I think if you click on the stem of a chord, all the notes will be selected and you'll hear them all play together, but I realise you can't currently do this with the keyboard, which is what you're really asking for.

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Re: Questions about editing/auditioning piano chords/chord n

Post by mipi » Sun Jun 11, 2017 2:59 pm

Daniel, thank you very much for your reply. Yes, it would be great to be able to hear a next note or a next whole chord by pressing continuously a right arrow on a keyboard. I do not thing this request has a highest priority yet, any way I miss such functionality very much and I would be happy if some day it will be implemented. Thank you:)

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