Windows 10: audio dropouts on multi-core CPU setups

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Re: Windows 10: audio dropouts on multi-core CPU setups

Post by Al Junior » Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:54 pm

Wepsta wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:50 am
Guys look @ this https://sendvid.com/3i5g2pf7
The key is never go under 128 samples with HT On.
128-256 Buffer + HT on + Asioguard = best performance.
HT needs minimum 128 Buffer or you get a popcorn machine ;)
Hi. I tried to repeat your benchmark. In my case, the processors are loaded only by 65%. If I turn off the Hyperthreading, then the processors are loaded by almost 100 percent. But more than 33 Halions do not pull in both cases.
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Re: Windows 10: audio dropouts on multi-core CPU setups

Post by Wepsta » Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:41 pm

Ok nice 👍 to me this looks like the Asio load need more clock speed, the limit is Cubase in this case.
Try it with VEP on same machine your Workstation is much more powerful.
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Re: Windows 10: audio dropouts on multi-core CPU setups

Post by Zerpio » Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:16 pm

nicoroy123 wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:55 pm
I have managed to improve my ASIO performance significantly on a 6 cores CPU so I thought I could share my settings in case it could help someone.

A lot of problems came from some Intel and Win10 features that are always trying down-clock the CPU speed to save power consumption, which is totally an ASIO killer. This was causing my ASIO meter to be very unstable, and was causing ASIO drop outs on heavy load.

CPU is a i7-6850K base clock at 3.6Ghz with a Turbo Boost at 3.8Ghz and a Turbo Max at 4.0Ghz. Max memory speed at 2400Mhz.

The key for me was to figure out how to "lock" the CPU at 4.0Ghz (Turbo Boost Max), all the time, which is the maximum speed of the CPU, without having Win10 or BIOS feature to down-clock the speed of the CPU.

So here all the BIOS settings I had to manually change to make sure the CPU stays at it's full potential, all the time:

1-Extreme Memory Profile (X.M.P) at Profile 1, to have my RAM running at 2400Mhz instead of the default 2133Mhz
2-Intel Turbo Boost Technology: Enabled, all Default
3-Intel Turbo Boost MAX Technology 3.0: Enabled. (This is what makes my CPU running at the max 4.0Ghz.)
4-Hyper Threading: Enabled. Seems to be ok for me

Now to prevents the CPU to be down clocked or down powered:
5-CPU Enhanced Halt (C1E): Disabled
6-C3 State Support: Disabled
7-C6/C7 State Support: Disabled
8-CPU EIST Function (Enhanced Intel® Speed Step Technology): Disabled
9-In Windows, make sure to use the High Performance Power Plan. In advanced properties, make sure to have all Processor Power settings at 100%.

Now, after a reboot, my CPU is locked 4.0Ghz all the time, with my RAM running at 2400Mhz.

My ASIO meter is now barely going over 20%, even under heavy load instead of moving back and forth and causing ASIO drop outs.

Hope it helps someone.
Nick

This can't be upvoted enough, thanks Nick you shurely saved my day and the performance on two mashines : :D

I'm now running 18 synths 64smp buffersize UR44 on Intel Core i7-7800X Skylake-X clocked to 4.5Ghz. I never go above 33% load and I have 2.3ms latency. My system are now rock steady.

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Re: Windows 10: audio dropouts on multi-core CPU setups

Post by J-S-Q » Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:31 pm

Wepsta wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:50 am
Guys look @ this https://sendvid.com/3i5g2pf7
The key is never go under 128 samples with HT On.
128-256 Buffer + HT on + Asioguard = best performance.
HT needs minimum 128 Buffer or you get a popcorn machine ;)
This is what I find too. At a buffer of 64 or 32, performance improves when Hyperthreading is disabled but at 128 or above, it's better with Hyperthreading on. I'm running an AMD 1920x (24 logical cores). Cubase can fully load all 24 cores, given the right type of project.
Cubase Pro 9, Win10
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Re: Windows 10: audio dropouts on multi-core CPU setups

Post by Sebaduh » Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:16 am

Any official news on this?
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Re: Windows 10: audio dropouts on multi-core CPU setups

Post by KeySlinger » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:55 pm

Is this still a Thing? I mean it was announced almost a year ago :( is this even possible to fix by Steinberg/Microsoft?

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Re: Windows 10: audio dropouts on multi-core CPU setups

Post by ntsarb » Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:12 am

It appears that Windows Pro for Workstations will provide new, kernel-level optimisations for low latency applications.

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/02/1 ... rkstation/

https://blogs.windows.com/business/2017 ... iCMEUoz.97

The new, relevant power plan is currently available via the Windows insider programme.

Is Steinberg looking into this? Can we have an update on whether Windows Pro for Workstations will affect the performance of Cubase Pro?

Thank you
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Re: Windows 10: audio dropouts on multi-core CPU setups

Post by ManChicken » Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:09 am

Something else for consideration...

https://www.facebook.com/notes/vb-audio ... 165445117/

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Re: Windows 10: audio dropouts on multi-core CPU setups

Post by SuperG » Mon Feb 26, 2018 5:32 am

ManChicken wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:09 am
Something else for consideration...

https://www.facebook.com/notes/vb-audio ... 165445117/
I read that - page swapping has been a feature of windows since the 16 bit days and still is, that article is a day late and a dollar short. If you don't want pages swapped out, you need to tell the OS - it's always been that way. Most applications, even audio ones don't lock up a lot of memory as it has other negative consequences. Besides, once you hand off data to the an audio driver driver - it's out of the applications hand.
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Re: Windows 10: audio dropouts on multi-core CPU setups

Post by vinark » Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:52 am

SuperG wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 5:32 am
ManChicken wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:09 am
Something else for consideration...

https://www.facebook.com/notes/vb-audio ... 165445117/
I read that - page swapping has been a feature of windows since the 16 bit days and still is, that article is a day late and a dollar short. If you don't want pages swapped out, you need to tell the OS - it's always been that way. Most applications, even audio ones don't lock up a lot of memory as it has other negative consequences. Besides, once you hand off data to the an audio driver driver - it's out of the applications hand.
Agreed, but..I did their test (not sure what it testes exactly) and indeed as they said, on win 7 I never went above 0.20ms and with my win10 partition on the same system I was at 69ms within a few minutes. So there is a problem there. BTW I don't use myin10 for production only for some testing so I have no idea what the impact is.

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Re: Windows 10: audio dropouts on multi-core CPU setups

Post by Wepsta » Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:25 pm

Microsoft have optimize latency in Windows 10 great!
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/window ... ency-audio

https://ibb.co/jDnNyH now we know the problem
- WIN10 RS4 update will fix this (February 2018)
lets hope :D

Edit: 07.03 The Insider Preview Build 17115 (RS4) never have this problem its better then Win 7.
https://imgur.com/a/UAI6Q

Cheers
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Re: Windows 10: audio dropouts on multi-core CPU setups

Post by cinematree » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:14 am

Does Windows Insider Preview Build 17115 (RS4) address the issue of limited thread counts? I've moved to Windows 7 and it works well, but would like to move back to Windows 10 (UAudio doesn't officially support thunderbolt on Windows 7).
Using Cubase 9.5 with Windows 7, Uaudio Thunderbolt Apollo 8 and a UAD Satellite

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Re: Windows 10: audio dropouts on multi-core CPU setups

Post by mart » Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:04 pm

Wepsta wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:25 pm
Microsoft have optimize latency in Windows 10 great!
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/window ... ency-audio

https://ibb.co/jDnNyH now we know the problem
- WIN10 RS4 update will fix this (February 2018)
lets hope :D

Edit: 07.03 The Insider Preview Build 17115 (RS4) never have this problem its better then Win 7.
https://imgur.com/a/UAI6Q

Cheers
Feb 2018 has passed. Can anyone confirm that this is fixed and there is no limit to the number of cores on a CPU?
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Feature Requests & Bugs not addressed in multiple iterations :
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Re: Windows 10: audio dropouts on multi-core CPU setups

Post by peakae » Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:51 pm

The first link is about low latency WASAPI, it is irrelevant as we are using ASIO that has lower latency anyway.
The second link is about the memory management that is poorly in the 1709 we hopefully al are running.
This is fixed in the new upcoming win10 release, and very well may be the course of audio interruptions.
This has nothing to do with the limited MMCSS threads that multi-core cpus can handle.
So nothing really indicates that this will ever change, at least MS have not given any statements about it, so this is pure speculation.
So currently there is
1. MMCSS limit (multi-core dependent)
2. FLS limit (plugins fail to load)
3. Memory management latency issue (should be fixed in the next upcoming “big” windows10 update
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Re: Windows 10: audio dropouts on multi-core CPU setups

Post by cinematree » Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:39 pm

peakae wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:51 pm
So currently there is
1. MMCSS limit (multi-core dependent)
2. FLS limit (plugins fail to load)
3. Memory management latency issue (should be fixed in the next upcoming “big” windows10 update
I know that #1 is not a problem in Windows 7. Are #2 and #3?
Using Cubase 9.5 with Windows 7, Uaudio Thunderbolt Apollo 8 and a UAD Satellite

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Re: Windows 10: audio dropouts on multi-core CPU setups

Post by peakae » Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:32 pm

2 yes, 3 no
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Re: Windows 10: audio dropouts on multi-core CPU setups

Post by aaandima » Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:51 pm

peakae wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:51 pm
.....
This has nothing to do with the limited MMCSS threads that multi-core cpus can handle.
So nothing really indicates that this will ever change, at least MS have not given any statements about it, so this is pure speculation.
So currently there is

1. MMCSS limit (multi-core dependent)
2. FLS limit (plugins fail to load)
3. Memory management latency issue (should be fixed in the next upcoming “big” windows10 update
Microsofts Developer Pete has pointed this:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/steinbe ... -10-a.html
In Windows 10, the Multimedia Class Scheduler Service was moved from user-mode to kernel-mode, to reduce overhead and improve integration with the kernel thread scheduler.

As a side effect, a per-process limitation of 32 registered threads was introduced. Applications which register a large number of threads in a single process may see MMCSS registration fail in Windows 10, in circumstances where it succeeded in Windows Vista through Windows 8.1.

We are looking at how to address this.

In general, Microsoft recommends the following for developers:

* Prefer using the Windows Real-Time Work Queue API Real-Time Work Queue API (Windows) over manually maintaining a set of dedicated threads.
* Be prepared for MMCSS registration to fail, since MMCSS resources will vary from system to system, and from even from time to time, depending on what other applications on the system are doing.
but Pete linked this Text from password protected Forum (Windows Insiders Developers ), i cannot see in.
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Re: Windows 10: audio dropouts on multi-core CPU setups

Post by venkmon » Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:43 pm

Reading this thread has made me excited - perhaps it is possible for me to get a decent performance from cubase using my machine - currently im experiencing incredibly poor stability, with audio drop outs, freezing and crashes - happens so much that I'm getting sick of using cubase.

Specs below- if anyone can advise on what I need to do to get a stable system I'll PayPal them a cash reward (yes I'm serious)

https://ibb.co/kT66Bx

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Re: Windows 10: audio dropouts on multi-core CPU setups

Post by ANeeman » Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:17 pm

@venkmon, almost the same as my machine.
I observed that some installations of other programms can disturb Cubase. Then I observed that Cubase wworks different after updates. I suppose that you can get better performance if you reinstall whole system and don't install any other programs after Cubase (except Steinberg products). I mean keep you machine clear as possible.

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Re: Windows 10: audio dropouts on multi-core CPU setups

Post by vinark » Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:51 am

venkmon wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:43 pm
Reading this thread has made me excited - perhaps it is possible for me to get a decent performance from cubase using my machine - currently im experiencing incredibly poor stability, with audio drop outs, freezing and crashes - happens so much that I'm getting sick of using cubase.

Specs below- if anyone can advise on what I need to do to get a stable system I'll PayPal them a cash reward (yes I'm serious)

https://ibb.co/kT66Bx
Install WIn7 64 let it update once, then install audio software and keep it away from the net afterwards.I am somewhat serious! Although win 10 can run smoothly for some, it is a little bit like Russian roulette. And even if you had a perfect system, the next win10 update might break it.

Oh and your system is not affected by the bug in this thread.

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Re: Windows 10: audio dropouts on multi-core CPU setups

Post by st33l » Thu May 03, 2018 11:18 am

Is there anyone that have tried the new Windows for Workstations Ultimate Performance thing with your daw? If so Is there any performance increase in any way? Is it worth to make a new installation u think.
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Re: Windows 10: audio dropouts on multi-core CPU setups

Post by Denis van der Velde » Thu May 03, 2018 11:23 am

Basically the Hypertrading must be Off in the Bios, that will let you go with a steady comp. This will also advance into a buffer you can set below <128 Samples and will be steady. The rest is ... Can my computer handle it ? Well i have my latency set for 8ms-10ms and that is good enough for me.
Lucky the Soundblaster lets me adjust in mS instead of buffer, so it is quite exact.
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Re: Windows 10: audio dropouts on multi-core CPU setups

Post by venkmon » Thu May 03, 2018 3:40 pm

vinark wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:51 am
venkmon wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:43 pm
Reading this thread has made me excited - perhaps it is possible for me to get a decent performance from cubase using my machine - currently im experiencing incredibly poor stability, with audio drop outs, freezing and crashes - happens so much that I'm getting sick of using cubase.

Specs below- if anyone can advise on what I need to do to get a stable system I'll PayPal them a cash reward (yes I'm serious)

https://ibb.co/kT66Bx
Install WIn7 64 let it update once, then install audio software and keep it away from the net afterwards.I am somewhat serious! Although win 10 can run smoothly for some, it is a little bit like Russian roulette. And even if you had a perfect system, the next win10 update might break it.

Oh and your system is not affected by the bug in this thread.
Thanks. Is it possible to roll back to 7 from 10? I would assume not as I've never held a licence for 7.

Also, how do you keep plugins updated if pc isn't on the net?

I keep getting getting real-time peak spikes on the cpu meter too - would this be because my samples are on my D: drive, which is a normal spinner and cubase is installed on C: which is an SSD?

Such a headache all of this

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Re: Windows 10: audio dropouts on multi-core CPU setups

Post by vinark » Thu May 03, 2018 3:45 pm

venkmon wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 3:40 pm
vinark wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:51 am
venkmon wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:43 pm
Reading this thread has made me excited - perhaps it is possible for me to get a decent performance from cubase using my machine - currently im experiencing incredibly poor stability, with audio drop outs, freezing and crashes - happens so much that I'm getting sick of using cubase.

Specs below- if anyone can advise on what I need to do to get a stable system I'll PayPal them a cash reward (yes I'm serious)

https://ibb.co/kT66Bx
Install WIn7 64 let it update once, then install audio software and keep it away from the net afterwards.I am somewhat serious! Although win 10 can run smoothly for some, it is a little bit like Russian roulette. And even if you had a perfect system, the next win10 update might break it.

Oh and your system is not affected by the bug in this thread.
Thanks. Is it possible to roll back to 7 from 10? I would assume not as I've never held a licence for 7.

Also, how do you keep plugins updated if pc isn't on the net?

I keep getting getting real-time peak spikes on the cpu meter too - would this be because my samples are on my D: drive, which is a normal spinner and cubase is installed on C: which is an SSD?

Such a headache all of this
1 No not afaik, but it can be bought cheap
2 I download them on another machine or you can disable windows update on win 7 (not on 10)
3 No my samples are on a normal HD too.

If you make a backup image of 10, you can install win7 64 pro and if I remember correctly it will work for 30 days without a key. Your win 10 key might work but I am not sure.
What is your audio card/device?

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Re: Windows 10: audio dropouts on multi-core CPU setups

Post by Thal » Thu May 03, 2018 4:27 pm

vinark wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:51 am
venkmon wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:43 pm
Reading this thread has made me excited - perhaps it is possible for me to get a decent performance from cubase using my machine - currently im experiencing incredibly poor stability, with audio drop outs, freezing and crashes - happens so much that I'm getting sick of using cubase.

Specs below- if anyone can advise on what I need to do to get a stable system I'll PayPal them a cash reward (yes I'm serious)

https://ibb.co/kT66Bx
Install WIn7 64 let it update once, then install audio software and keep it away from the net afterwards.I am somewhat serious! Although win 10 can run smoothly for some, it is a little bit like Russian roulette. And even if you had a perfect system, the next win10 update might break it.

Oh and your system is not affected by the bug in this thread.
Exactly. If you are serious about music production Win 7 is still the way to go. Its just a lot more stable.
All the best,
Thal


Windows 7 Ultimate
Cubase 9.0.20 Pro
Mr816X

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