mono vs stereo tracks - any difference for a mono source?

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Re: mono vs stereo tracks - any difference for a mono source?

Post by Hurmpie » Sat May 19, 2018 1:31 am

I can't see a disadvantage in using a stereo channel, if left and right are identical it will end up in the middle anyway.
And if not, you'll end up with the advantage of a stereo channel, stereo spread.

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Re: mono vs stereo tracks - any difference for a mono source?

Post by valsolim » Sat May 19, 2018 10:00 am

Hello, Prock,
Prock wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 1:21 am
You can check this for yourself... I’ve done extensive tests and there is no CPU difference at all when playing back the same mono audio recording on either a mono or stereo audio track with the same insert (or inserts) applied.
yes, I believe that you observation is true since some (maybe be the majority of?) stereo plugins work in stereo (i.e. they process both channels internally) regardless of the fact that they are actually inserted in a mono bus. But they are developers (e.g. MeldaProduction) who take care of optimization and whose plugins applied on a mono track effectively consume fewer resources.
Prock wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 1:21 am
The only difference is how Cubase processes an inserted stereo type of VST effect (like a reverb) during playback. It will not sound “correct” when playing on a mono audio track but it will sound good when played back on a stereo audio track. What I don’t know is if this phenomenon happens for “every” stereo type of VST effect. It does for every one I’ve tried.
Of course, you cannot achieve a stereo result on a mono bus. If you place a stereo plugin on a mono bus then the incoming signal is usually linked to its left channel only and its right channel processes just silence. However, the plugin output continues through the mono signal flow so you will not hear "reverb only on the left channel" as Denis van der Velde wrote. In fact, you will hear the processing applied on both the master bus channels but without any stereo spread (i.e. left and right signal will be identical).

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Re: mono vs stereo tracks - any difference for a mono source?

Post by valsolim » Sat May 19, 2018 10:05 am

Hurmpie wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 1:31 am
I can't see a disadvantage in using a stereo channel, if left and right are identical it will end up in the middle anyway.
And if not, you'll end up with the advantage of a stereo channel, stereo spread.
Yes, but you should bear in mind that the mixconsole panner is placed latest in the signal flow. Consequently, if you pan already reverbed channel hard left/right then you will actually lose any stereo spread.

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Re: mono vs stereo tracks - any difference for a mono source?

Post by Hurmpie » Sat May 19, 2018 1:49 pm

valsolim wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 10:05 am
Hurmpie wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 1:31 am
I can't see a disadvantage in using a stereo channel, if left and right are identical it will end up in the middle anyway.
And if not, you'll end up with the advantage of a stereo channel, stereo spread.
Yes, but you should bear in mind that the mixconsole panner is placed latest in the signal flow. Consequently, if you pan already reverbed channel hard left/right then you will actually lose any stereo spread.

--
Miloslav
In this case maybe Steinberg should add the option to pre/post-insert the channel panner. Otherwise as an insert, I much like the Alex Hilton A1StereoControl, especially with the "Safe Bass" function and Steinberg's VST MultiPanner.

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Re: mono vs stereo tracks - any difference for a mono source?

Post by Prock » Sat May 19, 2018 2:37 pm

valsolim wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 10:00 am
Hello, Prock,
...
Prock wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 1:21 am
The only difference is how Cubase processes an inserted stereo type of VST effect (like a reverb) during playback. It will not sound “correct” when playing on a mono audio track but it will sound good when played back on a stereo audio track. What I don’t know is if this phenomenon happens for “every” stereo type of VST effect. It does for every one I’ve tried.
Of course, you cannot achieve a stereo result on a mono bus. If you place a stereo plugin on a mono bus then the incoming signal is usually linked to its left channel only and its right channel processes just silence. However, the plugin output continues through the mono signal flow so you will not hear "reverb only on the left channel" as Denis van der Velde wrote. In fact, you will hear the processing applied on both the master bus channels but without any stereo spread (i.e. left and right signal will be identical).

Best regards
--
Miloslav
These discussions are good. ;)

But, just to clarify...
I never said that you can achieve a stereo effect on a mono bus. What this discussion is about is if there are any benefits for recording your mono source (like a guitar or mic) through a mono bus onto a mono track... Ever.

I believe that some users do record to a mono track. Then they insert a stereo VST effect on that mono track (which would be inserted after the recording) expecting that it will sound correct. In fact, it does not. For it to sound correct you would have to move that mono recording to a stereo audio track or... just record the mono audio on a stereo track in the first place so that whatever VST effects are inserted sound correct.

Regards 8-)
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Re: mono vs stereo tracks - any difference for a mono source?

Post by SteelyDani » Sat May 19, 2018 7:15 pm

Denis van der Velde wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 7:31 am
Thanks for the Credit where the Credit is due...! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D Finally
Allways happy to explain a Junior Member how it is..
valsolim wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 4:13 pm
Denis van der Velde wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 2:45 pm
So the reverb processes the MONO as LEFT channel only, while hearing MONO channel left with Reverb and MONO right without reverb.
That is and can be the end result!
I suppose this statement of yours is actually what made the other member confused since you are not correct. The situation you have described is not going to happen. If a stereo-only reverb is inserted on a mono bus then the resulting signal - before entering the stereo masterbus - will be still in mono so you cannot hear the left channel processed and the right one not.

Best regards
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Miloslav
How dare you Miloslav, poor Junior Member, to correct an authentic Member who has written 37 posts more than you? How daring! :o

In the end, it turns out that I was right in asking for clarification of such an absurd statement. I already knew it, but I was surprised that nobody reacted. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Fortunately in this forum there are many members, even Juniors, with high knowledge and great help.
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Re: mono vs stereo tracks - any difference for a mono source?

Post by Denis van der Velde » Wed May 23, 2018 6:24 pm

SteelyDani wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 7:15 pm
Denis van der Velde wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 7:31 am
Thanks for the Credit where the Credit is due...! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D Finally
Allways happy to explain a Junior Member how it is..
valsolim wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 4:13 pm
Denis van der Velde wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 2:45 pm
So the reverb processes the MONO as LEFT channel only, while hearing MONO channel left with Reverb and MONO right without reverb.
That is and can be the end result!
I suppose this statement of yours is actually what made the other member confused since you are not correct. The situation you have described is not going to happen. If a stereo-only reverb is inserted on a mono bus then the resulting signal - before entering the stereo masterbus - will be still in mono so you cannot hear the left channel processed and the right one not.

Best regards
--
Miloslav
How dare you Miloslav, poor Junior Member, to correct an authentic Member who has written 37 posts more than you? How daring! :o

In the end, it turns out that I was right in asking for clarification of such an absurd statement. I already knew it, but I was surprised that nobody reacted. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Fortunately in this forum there are many members, even Juniors, with high knowledge and great help.
- Some stereo VST effects will not work properly when inserted on a mono audio track.
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Re: mono vs stereo tracks - any difference for a mono source?

Post by stripealipe » Wed May 23, 2018 8:15 pm

So, recoding a mono source such as a vocal into a stereo channel means you're less likely to hit problems when possibly inserting stereo effects, such as track presets from Cubase where you're not entirely sure what you're getting.

But, if you're wanting to pan your signal in an actual space itself, such as a reverb, you're better of using a send fx.

What i'd like to know is, is there any audible difference between recording a mono source into a mono track vs a mono source into a stereo track, and, also is there any audible difference if you then setup a send and pan these sources into a stereo effect such as a reverb?

I can do some tests myself on this, but, not until tomorrow, so any insight to save me the time would be appreciated!

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Re: mono vs stereo tracks - any difference for a mono source?

Post by Denis van der Velde » Thu May 24, 2018 5:38 pm

stripealipe wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 8:15 pm
So, recoding a mono source such as a vocal into a stereo channel means you're less likely to hit problems when possibly inserting stereo effects, such as track presets from Cubase where you're not entirely sure what you're getting.

But, if you're wanting to pan your signal in an actual space itself, such as a reverb, you're better of using a send fx.

What i'd like to know is, is there any audible difference between recording a mono source into a mono track vs a mono source into a stereo track, and, also is there any audible difference if you then setup a send and pan these sources into a stereo effect such as a reverb?

I can do some tests myself on this, but, not until tomorrow, so any insight to save me the time would be appreciated!
All i can say basically i record vocals in stereo into cubase even with a mono source.
I think i even use a plugin that is basically a mono to stereo convertor (think it is called mono check or something) on the record channel input.
What it does is i record in mono vocals with a mic, but the plugin on the input channel of cubase converts it directly to stereo.
I think the left channel is the mono mic, right channel is empty no signal.
The input channel is stereo and the plugin on it converts left to mono, so it writes actually Left to Left and Right while recording.
I will recall later what plugin i use... dont know right now..

Afther that i create a stereo track for this vocal and copy the stereo file from the input channel to that track.
So i can record vocals again on the input channel...

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Re: mono vs stereo tracks - any difference for a mono source?

Post by Denis van der Velde » Thu May 24, 2018 9:18 pm

I have Kelly Industries Stereo Tools on the input channel of the mic in cubase. I set it on mono. Now it does not matter while recording, all is converted to a mono track on a stereo channel (left right are the same)..
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Re: mono vs stereo tracks - any difference for a mono source?

Post by Prock » Fri May 25, 2018 2:01 pm

Denis van der Velde wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 9:18 pm
I have Kelly Industries Stereo Tools on the input channel of the mic in cubase. I set it on mono. Now it does not matter while recording, all is converted to a mono track on a stereo channel (left right are the same)..
Fyi... clarfying...
If you record a mono source (like a mic) through a mono bus (which you should), to a mono or stereo audio track, the resultant file is mono (exactly the same actually) and the dry recording sounds the same. Both l/r sides sound the same on either track.

It's only after assigning a post recorded stereo insert on these tracks does the playback sound bad on a mono track.

Regards. 8-)
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Re: mono vs stereo tracks - any difference for a mono source?

Post by Denis van der Velde » Fri May 25, 2018 2:58 pm

Prock wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 2:01 pm
Denis van der Velde wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 9:18 pm
I have Kelly Industries Stereo Tools on the input channel of the mic in cubase. I set it on mono. Now it does not matter while recording, all is converted to a mono track on a stereo channel (left right are the same)..
Fyi... clarfying...
If you record a mono source (like a mic) through a mono bus (which you should), to a mono or stereo audio track, the resultant file is mono (exactly the same actually) and the dry recording sounds the same. Both l/r sides sound the same on either track.

It's only after assigning a post recorded stereo insert on these tracks does the playback sound bad on a mono track.

Regards. 8-)
So this is more profing wrong or right.... i know better stuff.... i do it my way and i know it works. Thanks for your tips...
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Re: mono vs stereo tracks - any difference for a mono source?

Post by peakae » Fri May 25, 2018 5:28 pm

But it is completely unnecessary.
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Re: mono vs stereo tracks - any difference for a mono source?

Post by Denis van der Velde » Fri May 25, 2018 5:29 pm

peakae wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 5:28 pm
But it is completely unnecessary.
Thx but is my systems and works...
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Re: mono vs stereo tracks - any difference for a mono source?

Post by Jorge Ruiz » Fri May 25, 2018 11:10 pm

If you use an stereo channel to record a mono source, the thing is that you are exactly duplicating the space needed in your hard disk. Not a very good solution. In my opinion, what we really need is the return of a very simple feature that we had in Cubase SX 1: the possibility of turning a mono channel into an stereo one with a simple click, and without altering its contents.
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Re: mono vs stereo tracks - any difference for a mono source?

Post by Prock » Fri May 25, 2018 11:17 pm

Jorge Ruiz wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 11:10 pm
If you use an stereo channel to record a mono source, the thing is that you are exactly duplicating the space needed in your hard disk. Not a very good solution. In my opinion, what we really need is the return of a very simple feature that we had in Cubase SX 1: the possibility of turning a mono channel into an stereo one with a simple click, and without altering its contents.
Fyi... recording a mono source through a mono bus to a stereo audio track does not duplicate the space on your hard drive. The file is mono. The same as if you recorded it on a mono track.

Regards. 8-)
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Re: mono vs stereo tracks - any difference for a mono source?

Post by compositor » Sat May 26, 2018 12:59 am

I use mono tracks for nearly everything because I mix in mono, with the benefit that file sizes are smaller when exporting to other applications.

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Re: mono vs stereo tracks - any difference for a mono source?

Post by Scab Pickens » Sat May 26, 2018 3:24 am

compositor wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 12:59 am
I use mono tracks for nearly everything because I mix in mono, with the benefit that file sizes are smaller when exporting to other applications.
Good for you. It still doesn't change the fact that the resulting file is identical whether you record a mono bus to a stereo or mono track.
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Re: mono vs stereo tracks - any difference for a mono source?

Post by Scab Pickens » Sat May 26, 2018 6:37 am

Just tested again - had not since Cubase 7(.5?). Same result. Unless things have changed from 9 -> 9.5 (I have yet to update), a mono bus assigned to a mono or stereo track results in the same file.

Here's what I did - try it for yourself ...

1) Open a new, empty project
2) Create a mono input bus (in my case, input 1 of my Focusrite Pro 40)
3) Assign said bus as input to a newly created mono audio track
4) Assign said bus as input to a newly created stereo audio track
5) Record enable both tracks
6) Press "Record" and proceed to bust out a few licks on your Squier mini-Strat (or, whatever ... )
7) Analyse and compare audio statistics (and identical file size) for each track
8) Ask yourself "why have you been using mono tracks?"
9) Carry on with life in a more open and energetic way, now that you have realized the truth
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Re: mono vs stereo tracks - any difference for a mono source?

Post by Scab Pickens » Sat May 26, 2018 6:39 am

The other image ...
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Re: mono vs stereo tracks - any difference for a mono source?

Post by Scab Pickens » Sat May 26, 2018 6:56 am

zooterman wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 9:59 am
... also would it it affect sending the track out to an outboard single channel strip?
You can send/return as mono or stereo (among others) from a stereo track.
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Re: mono vs stereo tracks - any difference for a mono source?

Post by Jorge Ruiz » Sat May 26, 2018 1:33 pm

Prock wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 11:17 pm
Jorge Ruiz wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 11:10 pm
If you use an stereo channel to record a mono source, the thing is that you are exactly duplicating the space needed in your hard disk. Not a very good solution. In my opinion, what we really need is the return of a very simple feature that we had in Cubase SX 1: the possibility of turning a mono channel into an stereo one with a simple click, and without altering its contents.
Fyi... recording a mono source through a mono bus to a stereo audio track does not duplicate the space on your hard drive. The file is mono. The same as if you recorded it on a mono track.

Regards. 8-)
That's right. I was referring to the method described by Denis van der Velde, though.
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Re: mono vs stereo tracks - any difference for a mono source?

Post by Prock » Sat May 26, 2018 1:42 pm

Jorge Ruiz wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 1:33 pm
Prock wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 11:17 pm
Jorge Ruiz wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 11:10 pm
If you use an stereo channel to record a mono source, the thing is that you are exactly duplicating the space needed in your hard disk. Not a very good solution. In my opinion, what we really need is the return of a very simple feature that we had in Cubase SX 1: the possibility of turning a mono channel into an stereo one with a simple click, and without altering its contents.
Fyi... recording a mono source through a mono bus to a stereo audio track does not duplicate the space on your hard drive. The file is mono. The same as if you recorded it on a mono track.

Regards. 8-)
That's right. I was referring to the method described by Denis van der Velde, though.
Now I get it.... Cool ;)

Regards 8-)
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Re: mono vs stereo tracks - any difference for a mono source?

Post by Prock » Sat May 26, 2018 1:44 pm

Scab Pickens wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 6:37 am
Just tested again - had not since Cubase 7(.5?). Same result. Unless things have changed from 9 -> 9.5 (I have yet to update), a mono bus assigned to a mono or stereo track results in the same file.

Here's what I did - try it for yourself ...

1) Open a new, empty project
2) Create a mono input bus (in my case, input 1 of my Focusrite Pro 40)
3) Assign said bus as input to a newly created mono audio track
4) Assign said bus as input to a newly created stereo audio track
5) Record enable both tracks
6) Press "Record" and proceed to bust out a few licks on your Squier mini-Strat (or, whatever ... )
7) Analyse and compare audio statistics (and identical file size) for each track
8) Ask yourself "why have you been using mono tracks?"
9) Carry on with life in a more open and energetic way, now that you have realized the truth
Great posts. Thanks ;)

Regards 8-)
PRock Studio

DAW: Cubase Pro 10.5, OS: Win 10 Pro x64, CPU: Intel Core i7 4700K @ 4.0GHz, RAM: 32GB/DDR4/2800MHz, Graphics: 4GB GeForce GTX 960, Mobo: MSI Z170A Gaming Pro Carbon, AI: PreSonus Studio 192 Mobile, Mic Preamp: PreSonus TubePre, Headphone Amp: PreSonus HP4, Studio Monitors: Mackie MR5, 3rd Party VSTs: GSi VB3-II, SampleTank 3, Amplitube 4, Miroslav Philharmonik 2, EZDrummer 2

https://soundcloud.com/prockstudio

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Denis van der Velde
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Re: mono vs stereo tracks - any difference for a mono source?

Post by Denis van der Velde » Mon May 28, 2018 10:12 am

Great that now everybody is on the same page..... pfffffffffffffff
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Running on 8ms Latency with a Soundblaster XFi Pro. Yamaha MW12c USB mixer.
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