Request: Let Instrument Tracks connect to Rack Instrument

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mbira
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Request: Let Instrument Tracks connect to Rack Instrument

Post by mbira » Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:11 am

I use Vienna Ensemble Pro with a very large template. So I use many Rack instruments. It would be really helpful if we could allow Instrument Tracks to connect to Rack Instruments. As things are now, you need to have both a midi track and the audio return. So you need to create twice as many tracks the way things are now.

I understand that things are a little more complicated with Rack instruments. but basically what I want is to be able to use a single track where I write the midi and receive the audio from a specific audio output of the rack instrument within one track instead of two-like what you can do with Instrument Tracks right now.
Cubase Pro - usually the latest version | Cubase Elements (because of the damn dongle) | Wavelab Pro | Dorico 2 Pro | Halion 6 | Laptop: Macbook Pro 2.8 GHz Intel Core i7 16 G RAM, OS 10.10| Studio computer: 2012 12 core Mac Pro Tower 64 G RAM | PC Slave i7 8920 running VEP6 | Apollo 16 Firewire

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raino
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Re: Request: Let Instrument Tracks connect to Rack Instrument

Post by raino » Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:39 am

I may be missing something, but how does what you are requesting differ from the current Instrument Track (outside of one having the VSTi appear in the top of the Rack and the other in the bottom)? It sounds like you want the functionality of an Instrument Track to also be included in MIDI Tracks - which kinda just turns them into Instrument Tracks.

Or is there some reason VEP wants to use MIDI but not Instrument Tracks?
rodger

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Re: Request: Let Instrument Tracks connect to Rack Instrument

Post by mbira » Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:50 am

raino wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:39 am
I may be missing something, but how does what you are requesting differ from the current Instrument Track (outside of one having the VSTi appear in the top of the Rack and the other in the bottom)? It sounds like you want the functionality of an Instrument Track to also be included in MIDI Tracks - which kinda just turns them into Instrument Tracks.

Or is there some reason VEP wants to use MIDI but not Instrument Tracks?
What you are missing is that with a rack instrument you only need a single instance and you can connect all the midi tracks to a single instance by changing the midi channels and ports (I know you can do this with an instrument track as well, but then you get the doubled up tracks problem again). The problem is that then to route audio back, you need to activate separate audio outputs back out from the rack. So you end up needing a midi track and an audio return track for each "instrument" that is being fed from the midi track.

To do it on an instrument track you need to have an instance of VEP for every single instrument track.

...

So one way I could imagine implementing this would be to create an instrument track and Cubase would let you select a Rack instrument as the instrument instead of only limiting you to "non-rack" instruments. You could then set the midi channel and port within the instrument track and choose which audio return from the rack would be the audio that is playing back within the instrument track. That would give you one track instead of two.

If you don't use VEP, then this will probably not make much sense, but if you do, I think this would really clean things up.
Cubase Pro - usually the latest version | Cubase Elements (because of the damn dongle) | Wavelab Pro | Dorico 2 Pro | Halion 6 | Laptop: Macbook Pro 2.8 GHz Intel Core i7 16 G RAM, OS 10.10| Studio computer: 2012 12 core Mac Pro Tower 64 G RAM | PC Slave i7 8920 running VEP6 | Apollo 16 Firewire

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Reflection
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Re: Request: Let Instrument Tracks connect to Rack Instrument

Post by Reflection » Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:19 am

I like the idea.

What do you think about maby doing it this way?

Just enable the instrument track to have a folder option for midi tracks. like a organizer, So you can Switch midi track in the inspector, to bring up front the track you want to edit, multi select for multi edit in score... and route to instrument channels with option of routing too rack instrument for the "save the day" fixer solution.

The audio part of the instrument track all ready support multi output instruments. So there is not much that needs to be done.

You can have a track that can hold alot of juce, without making a mess in the project window.
os: win 10 64bit (latest). Cubase pro 9.5.41, 10.0.5
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Re: Request: Let Instrument Tracks connect to Rack Instrument

Post by mbira » Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:29 pm

Reflection wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:19 am
I like the idea.

What do you think about maby doing it this way?

Just enable the instrument track to have a folder option for midi tracks. like a organizer, So you can Switch midi track in the inspector, to bring up front the track you want to edit, multi select for multi edit in score... and route to instrument channels with option of routing too rack instrument for the "save the day" fixer solution.

The audio part of the instrument track all ready support multi output instruments. So there is not much that needs to be done.

You can have a track that can hold alot of juce, without making a mess in the project window.
This doesn't address the issue. This is simply how things are now. The problem is that with a large template (In my case about 700 tracks), I have an extra 350 tracks to deal with-half are MIDI and half are Audio returns. It would be much more manageable if there were only 350 tracks that contain both the MIDI and the audio returns.
Cubase Pro - usually the latest version | Cubase Elements (because of the damn dongle) | Wavelab Pro | Dorico 2 Pro | Halion 6 | Laptop: Macbook Pro 2.8 GHz Intel Core i7 16 G RAM, OS 10.10| Studio computer: 2012 12 core Mac Pro Tower 64 G RAM | PC Slave i7 8920 running VEP6 | Apollo 16 Firewire

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Re: Request: Let Instrument Tracks connect to Rack Instrument

Post by raino » Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:49 pm

mbira wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:29 pm
This doesn't address the issue. This is simply how things are now. The problem is that with a large template (In my case about 700 tracks), I have an extra 350 tracks to deal with-half are MIDI and half are Audio returns. It would be much more manageable if there were only 350 tracks that contain both the MIDI and the audio returns.
I get that this is real issue when trying to manage lots of Tracks. But what I'm not understanding is why you can't just use the existing Instrument Tracks instead of MIDI Tracks so you only end up with 1 track per instrument instead of 2. Is it a signal routing constraint imposed by VEP?
rodger

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Re: Request: Let Instrument Tracks connect to Rack Instrument

Post by Reflection » Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:56 pm

mbira wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:29 pm
This doesn't address the issue. This is simply how things are now. The problem is that with a large template (In my case about 700 tracks), I have an extra 350 tracks to deal with-half are MIDI and half are Audio returns. It would be much more manageable if there were only 350 tracks that contain both the MIDI and the audio returns.
Ok. We all have different workflow. I would love to have multi instrument track. Have it working like a sub organizer. Option of having several midi tracks triggering each instrument channel. Today it is just 1 midi channel 1 midi output. Would be way more fun changing lanes to induvidual midi outputs on the track instrument.
And then all the ease of just loading channel presets. Say good bye to loading up massive templates. Just load in the sections by presets, as the masterpiece takes shape.

Im lucky that my orchestra load on multi instrument plugin, so I dont have to deal with the "mad" house, you have to organize.
I avoid scrolling through the Track Visibility window, by using hide selected track and using the track search to bring in the tracks I need to work on in the project window. I Usualy only have 10-12 tracks visible. Rest are hidden.

But im open too try new workflows and having more options :)
os: win 10 64bit (latest). Cubase pro 9.5.41, 10.0.5
Hw: maximus viii hero 1151, I7 K6700, 16gb ram, nvida GTX 1070.
Sound: A&H Gsr-24M. Otari mtr-90mk2, Mx-55.
Dsp: uad-2. Powercore.
Daw control: Nektar Panorama p4, A&H Gsr-24M

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Re: Request: Let Instrument Tracks connect to Rack Instrument

Post by mbira » Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:01 am

Sorry-I think I wasn't totally clear.

Basically what I want is to be able to have midi and the audio return live in a single track (like what you get with a single instrument track). I'd like to be able to create more instrument tracks and have the midi be routed all to that same instance of VEP (like you can do with a rack instrument or midi track now), but have the audio return to the instrument track. Then you don't need separate audio output tracks as well.

I do a lot of processing on the audio side, and I really like how in an instrument track I can see the midi right there but still manipulate the audio with inserts without having to bounce between tracks.
Cubase Pro - usually the latest version | Cubase Elements (because of the damn dongle) | Wavelab Pro | Dorico 2 Pro | Halion 6 | Laptop: Macbook Pro 2.8 GHz Intel Core i7 16 G RAM, OS 10.10| Studio computer: 2012 12 core Mac Pro Tower 64 G RAM | PC Slave i7 8920 running VEP6 | Apollo 16 Firewire

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Reflection
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Re: Request: Let Instrument Tracks connect to Rack Instrument

Post by Reflection » Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:27 am

You where clear. So I understand you :)

My thinkin was just if we did it opposit of yours. Put all the midi tracks in the instrument channel. Link them up there. So you have each channel showing as a instrument channel With midi and audio merged at custom choise. And just flipp what ever to surface and edit.

What ever we load a vsti as, be it rack or instrument, it will have multi channel support. My alternative way of doing it and yours, would look different in the project window, but would look just the same in the mixer window and would translate the same to controllers. I just think a added bounce would be to also do yours. So the users that want project window and mixer looking the same and save track count, could take your approch and users like me, that cant stand looking at a sea of tracks in the project window, could folde the midi in with the vsti audio in one track with smart tools for selecting and editing.

I think it is a good thing to show and tell workflow. There are many ways to keep a daw organized.
And always new things to learn and missing functions to ask for.

If you are not a big user of the visabillity filter option and search functions in Cubase, It will quickly become a nightmare to work on the monster track projects. But it dosent hurt to have other types of organizing options.

This merge function will make life easy for you and many others.
So I support your suggestion :)
os: win 10 64bit (latest). Cubase pro 9.5.41, 10.0.5
Hw: maximus viii hero 1151, I7 K6700, 16gb ram, nvida GTX 1070.
Sound: A&H Gsr-24M. Otari mtr-90mk2, Mx-55.
Dsp: uad-2. Powercore.
Daw control: Nektar Panorama p4, A&H Gsr-24M

mbira
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Re: Request: Let Instrument Tracks connect to Rack Instrument

Post by mbira » Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:50 pm

Reflection wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:27 am
You where clear. So I understand you :)

My thinkin was just if we did it opposit of yours. Put all the midi tracks in the instrument channel. Link them up there. So you have each channel showing as a instrument channel With midi and audio merged at custom choise. And just flipp what ever to surface and edit.

What ever we load a vsti as, be it rack or instrument, it will have multi channel support. My alternative way of doing it and yours, would look different in the project window, but would look just the same in the mixer window and would translate the same to controllers. I just think a added bounce would be to also do yours. So the users that want project window and mixer looking the same and save track count, could take your approch and users like me, that cant stand looking at a sea of tracks in the project window, could folde the midi in with the vsti audio in one track with smart tools for selecting and editing.

I think it is a good thing to show and tell workflow. There are many ways to keep a daw organized.
And always new things to learn and missing functions to ask for.

If you are not a big user of the visabillity filter option and search functions in Cubase, It will quickly become a nightmare to work on the monster track projects. But it dosent hurt to have other types of organizing options.

This merge function will make life easy for you and many others.
So I support your suggestion :)
I am aware of how we can use multiple audio outputs on an instrument track now and connect multiple MIDI tracks and use folders to organize, etc. My suggestion is so that we can stop having to do that so much.

I use visibility agents all the time. I live and die by Metagrid. regardless of visibility agents, I will still need to be looking at two tracks when dealing with midi and audio vs. looking at one track with my suggestion.

Thanks for the support! :-)
Cubase Pro - usually the latest version | Cubase Elements (because of the damn dongle) | Wavelab Pro | Dorico 2 Pro | Halion 6 | Laptop: Macbook Pro 2.8 GHz Intel Core i7 16 G RAM, OS 10.10| Studio computer: 2012 12 core Mac Pro Tower 64 G RAM | PC Slave i7 8920 running VEP6 | Apollo 16 Firewire

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