Cubase 9.5 Features in Nuendo 8 - When?

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TimoWildenhain
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Re: Cubase 9.5 Features in Nuendo 8 - When?

Post by TimoWildenhain » Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:23 pm

MattiasNYC wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:02 pm
TimoWildenhain wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:21 pm
DTSR wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:51 pm
If implementing a bus designed (22.2 aside, in case someone offer this is a solution) for dealing with HOA isn't a big deal, why is it taking so long? Instead of developing a "VR DAW" as a separate product/add-on why not address signal flow rigidity? it's clearly bus rigidity that has led to many adopting Reaper at this point, so one would think this is something Steinberg would be eager to address? I just find it curious, it's an obvious weakness in the product, and if it's not a big deal to solve, why not solve it?
Because an Ambisonics bus doesn't make a VR product. And to be accurate, Reaper has no Ambisonics bus. The bus width simply allows
for 64 channels. Yes, we could have opened the bus to 64, same as Reaper. And yes we know that Reaper gets a lot attention in the VR
market because of this. But the VR market is in its beginnings and things need to be considered long-term. Simply adding a 64 ch bus
doesn't bring the VR audio production to the next level.
Ok, but here's where I completely start to lose faith in your company.

You have a bunch of users turning to a different application because it allows for a 64-channel bus, making it suitable for ambisonics. Then you say it's easy enough to make that happen in Nuendo. Then you go on and say that you don't feel like doing that because it doesn't make Nuendo a "next level" VR production DAW. Well, honestly I think that's just silly.

Users here have repeatedly over the years asked for a more flexible routing system as far as channel count goes. If I remember correctly early versions were far more flexible than what we see today. And once that changed you stuck with the channels you decided were good enough for us to use. And if users said they wanted another count, or enough for Ambisonics, you just decided that we didn't need that. Apparently what we need is something else (undefined) which may or may not show up at some undefined point in the future. So, sorry, but that doesn't cut it for me.

While you sit and think about this stellar future VR integration/application, users will get used to Reaper, and its responsive flexible management/development team will put out new features. Users will get used to it so why switch?

What this tells me as a user is that your company's "visionaries" are pretty stubborn. Users want 64-channels for Ambisonics, a technology that more and more people are using and not only Reaper but the main post-production competitor is catering to? Doesn't matter. What matters is that you have some sort of planning in your mind or on some sort of paper, and it must proceed.

The smart thing to do in my opinion is for your company to be at least somewhat agile here. Just bite the bullet and include the necessary channel count. It's no big deal, even you say that. Do that so people can use Nuendo and not have to look at Reaper if that's what's happening.

Heck, I'll put it a different way: What do you have to lose?

Sometimes you guys are just incredibly stubborn. I know I'm repeating myself, but your argument above is why I don't find Steinberg inspiring any longer, or why I feel like I want to invest more money into your product. For the most part there's almost no communication, then users get fed up and the noise is too much for you to bear, and then there's a bug fix (VCA only after massive complaints) and some appeasing talk, but really it feels like the same stubborn leadership and corporate culture.
There is no stubborness. All this doesn't come up overnight in someones brain. It is well discussed and reflected with many leading companies in the field of VR production and VR platforms. The VR industry is not yet about making profit. It is not about winning over as many users as possible on a specific platform. It is about creating partnerships and finding solutions that will work in the long run. Else this 3rd attempt for VR will end up like the 2 before. And beside all these considerations , yes it is also a matter of resources and prioritization.

There are fields of applications in post-production beyond 24 channels (Nuendos current capability), but we are getting few requests on that end..

Matthias, you are free to believe whatever you want. I tried to be very clear with a lot of topics in all of my recent posts and I hope
that I brought some clarification to the most urgent topics. However, I'm not going to further discuss specific details of our product
strategies, which I hope you understand. Thanks for the discussion.
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Re: Cubase 9.5 Features in Nuendo 8 - When?

Post by TimoWildenhain » Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:26 pm

Sugar wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:47 pm
TimoWildenhain wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:14 pm
The difference however is, that nearly ALL Cubase features are ported to Nuendo, while only few Nuendo features make it into Cubase.
Timo,
which Cubase features will not be ported to Nuendo?
Hi sugar,
My comment was more related to a few cases in the past. I cannot think of something
related to the current C9.5 features that would not be ported.

Thanks,
Timo
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Re: Cubase 9.5 Features in Nuendo 8 - When?

Post by Getalife2 » Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:58 pm

Thanks again, Timo, for taking the time to fill us in. I appreciate it.
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Re: Cubase 9.5 Features in Nuendo 8 - When?

Post by MattiasNYC » Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:12 pm

TimoWildenhain wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:23 pm
There is no stubborness. All this doesn't come up overnight in someones brain. It is well discussed and reflected with many leading companies in the field of VR production and VR platforms. The VR industry is not yet about making profit. It is not about winning over as many users as possible. It is about creating partnerships and finding solutions that will work in the long run. Else this 3rd attempt for VR will end up like the 2 before. And beside all these considerations , yes it is also a matter of resources and prioritization.
You can say that all you want, but the fact is that the industry leader in post-production catered to this and you didn't, and on the other end of the spectrum there's Reaper.

Again: What do you have to lose here?
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Re: Cubase 9.5 Features in Nuendo 8 - When?

Post by DTSR » Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:46 pm

TimoWildenhain wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:23 pm
And beside all these considerations , yes it is also a matter of resources and prioritization.
based on this then, one should assume that HOA asset production - for use in game audio, VR, and 360/immersive video - is simply not something Steinberg thinks is a priority.

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Re: Cubase 9.5 Features in Nuendo 8 - When?

Post by Tumppi Järnefelt » Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:23 am

DTSR wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:46 pm
TimoWildenhain wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:23 pm
And beside all these considerations , yes it is also a matter of resources and prioritization.
based on this then, one should assume that HOA asset production - for use in game audio, VR, and 360/immersive video - is simply not something Steinberg thinks is a priority.
For me, this suits very well. VR can wait IMO.

There is plenty to do to make Nuendo even better DAW for film and TV like location recording workflow etc. I don't know about Reaper, but main competition for Nuendo is Pro Tools and while it is also a great DAW it has great flaws as well like the video engine etc. I'm glad that SB isn't trying to ride every horse in field...

I agree that some fixes have taken way too long and I'd love to have more company level interaction here but still...
Nuendo is a great tool (greatest IMO) so while so much whining is going on I'd like thank Timo again for participating here and really hope to "see" you more often.
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Re: Cubase 9.5 Features in Nuendo 8 - When?

Post by Zinnematic » Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:44 pm

Whining? Just seems like users expressing their concerns over valid issues.

I'd like to add my voice to the "thank you's" for feedback from the dev. It does help.
I've been using Nuendo off and on since v5, and my question for Timo is when will Nuendo have a realistic ability to export audio/video? Prior to v8, it was a kind of clunky "replace audio in video file", and now there's not even that option. I know there are workarounds using 3rd party software, but often, very often, I need to just highlight a section and quickly fire off a chunk of video with audio for approval. I can do this in Pro Tools, Logic, DP, or Reaper, but can't do it in Nuendo. I understand the video engine re-design, QT being an end-of-life technology etc, but for me, this simply forces me into other hosts, especially if I know I'll have to do it quickly and regularly.
I like Nuendo, and accept it's flaws as "works in progress", but for me at least, this makes it largely unusable in it's current state. Other issues with N8 have been widely spoken of, and I hope those will be addressed soon as well.

Cheers

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Re: Cubase 9.5 Features in Nuendo 8 - When?

Post by TimoWildenhain » Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:26 pm

Zinnematic wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:44 pm
Whining? Just seems like users expressing their concerns over valid issues.

I'd like to add my voice to the "thank you's" for feedback from the dev. It does help.
I've been using Nuendo off and on since v5, and my question for Timo is when will Nuendo have a realistic ability to export audio/video? Prior to v8, it was a kind of clunky "replace audio in video file", and now there's not even that option. I know there are workarounds using 3rd party software, but often, very often, I need to just highlight a section and quickly fire off a chunk of video with audio for approval. I can do this in Pro Tools, Logic, DP, or Reaper, but can't do it in Nuendo. I understand the video engine re-design, QT being an end-of-life technology etc, but for me, this simply forces me into other hosts, especially if I know I'll have to do it quickly and regularly.
I like Nuendo, and accept it's flaws as "works in progress", but for me at least, this makes it largely unusable in it's current state. Other issues with N8 have been widely spoken of, and I hope those will be addressed soon as well.

Cheers
Thank you very much for this questions. Video Rendering is the next topic on our list regarding the further video engine development.
Replacing the QT engine has been a major task for us and there are still some open feature requests that are currently adressed.
Video rendering is another big topic which will take some time to be realized properly. It is definitely scheduled for Nuendo 9.

Thanks,
Timo
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Re: Cubase 9.5 Features in Nuendo 8 - When?

Post by Sugar » Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:44 am

Timo,
will Video Rendering come to Cubase as well? It's one of those features with a universal appeal for both music production and post.
As a film composer I don't really need any of the postproduction workflows, but I do need the Edit Mode, Multi-branch Undo, Advanced Crossfade editor and... Video Rendering.

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Re: Cubase 9.5 Features in Nuendo 8 - When?

Post by Romantique Tp » Tue Dec 12, 2017 6:10 am

Video rendering will replace the old Replace Audio in Video option. It's of course also coming to Cubase.
Every time someone says "it must be easy to add/fix", a programmer dies.

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Re: Cubase 9.5 Features in Nuendo 8 - When?

Post by hesca116 » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:47 pm

+1 to OP

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Re: Cubase 9.5 Features in Nuendo 8 - When?

Post by Turnicate99 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:41 pm

I just read through this thread with interest. I'm a recent Cubase 9.5 user, and really want a few of the features in Nuendo (edit mode, mostly, which is absurd that it's not in Cubase), but with Nuendo always being behind the great new features of Cubase, I'm not going to do it.

This, to me, is not smart of Steinberg because I'm sure there are many in the same boat as me. I would highly recommend, from a business standpoint, that things be arranged to get them both on the same release schedule.

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Re: Cubase 9.5 Features in Nuendo 8 - When?

Post by Boatman » Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:40 am

Fredo wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:27 pm
I have learned that explaining stuff just makes things worse.


Not only is this the best and most insightful comment that I have ever read on any Steinberg forum in the last eighteen years, it might be the best and most insightful comment that I have ever read on any forum. Sadly.

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Re: Cubase 9.5 Features in Nuendo 8 - When?

Post by Getalife2 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:02 am

Boatman wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:40 am
Fredo wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:27 pm
I have learned that explaining stuff just makes things worse.


Not only is this the best and most insightful comment that I have ever read on any Steinberg forum in the last eighteen years, it might be the best and most insightful comment that I have ever read on any forum. Sadly.
Isn't that just a wee bit cynical? It all depends on who you are explaining a thing to, I would think.

Proverbs says: "The wise store up knowledge, but the mouth of a fool invites ruin."

In my experience, just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so valuable information only appeals to those who wish to learn. Sadly, that is not everybody. But it is somebody.
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Re: Cubase 9.5 Features in Nuendo 8 - When?

Post by Fredo » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:13 am

Boatman wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:40 am
Not only is this the best and most insightful comment that I have ever read on any Steinberg forum in the last eighteen years, it might be the best and most insightful comment that I have ever read on any forum. Sadly.

Mr. Boatman,

Thank you so much for quoting me completely out of context, I can only guess what you are trying to achieve.

This quote was taken' out of a response to why the Nuendo automation system is different to the Cubase system.
I said that I explained the differences many times before and that I wouldn't repeat it in this thread.

The reason for not explaining the differences *again* is because everybody has his/her own truth, his/her own personal view on how things should work. Therefore any argumentation/explenation that is brought forward for *why* things ahve been implemented (or not) in a certain way, will automatically generate a stream of *political* arguments pro- or contra. I will gladly explain any technical thing, but I stay away from political discussions. Been there, done that, bought the T-Shirt.

Fredo

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Re: Cubase 9.5 Features in Nuendo 8 - When?

Post by MattiasNYC » Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:54 pm

Fredo wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:13 am
Boatman wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:40 am
Not only is this the best and most insightful comment that I have ever read on any Steinberg forum in the last eighteen years, it might be the best and most insightful comment that I have ever read on any forum. Sadly.

Mr. Boatman,

Thank you so much for quoting me completely out of context, I can only guess what you are trying to achieve.
I thought he was agreeing with you....!?!?!?
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Re: Cubase 9.5 Features in Nuendo 8 - When?

Post by Getalife2 » Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:39 pm

MattiasNYC wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:54 pm
Fredo wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:13 am
Boatman wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:40 am
Not only is this the best and most insightful comment that I have ever read on any Steinberg forum in the last eighteen years, it might be the best and most insightful comment that I have ever read on any forum. Sadly.

Mr. Boatman,

Thank you so much for quoting me completely out of context, I can only guess what you are trying to achieve.
I thought he was agreeing with you....!?!?!?
Yes, that's what I thought as well.

I think much of the reason forums get so weird is the absence of non-verbal clues from complete strangers during communication. Is that guy/girl smiling or clenching their teeth when they say that? Sarcasm/humor/sincerity/irony/anger/dissing? Often a mystery. Leaving the reader's own current mental and emotional state to fill in that blank, often with poor results.

But, yeah, I thought he was really complimenting Fredo even if he mistook what Fredo actually meant.
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Re: Cubase 9.5 Features in Nuendo 8 - When?

Post by Fredo » Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:30 am

I read it as being highly ironic/sarcastic.
My bad.

Fredo

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Re: Cubase 9.5 Features in Nuendo 8 - When?

Post by Alex Motylev » Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:08 am

TimoWildenhain wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:54 pm
However, we believe that Nuendo 8.1 already solved some of the major issues and the next maintenance is already planned. With the upcoming maintenance, expected for end of January/beginning of February, we will address overall product performance issues, especially User Interface responsiveness.
Unfortunately, I can't use 8.1 for my work, still too many issues for me. After installing 7.1.40 I have to convert majority of videos from h.264 (almost all editors send me videos in this codec over the internet). I'd like to downgrade to 7.1.35 but looks like there is no such option. I am waiting for that maintenance update. I still have some hope, but there is pretty unusable 8 version for half year and last 7.1.40 upgrade introduced me to complications in my workflow without any improvements and there is statement that it's last upgrade for 7. Please, at least fix video engine issues for 7 version.

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Re: Cubase 9.5 Features in Nuendo 8 - When?

Post by TimoWildenhain » Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:59 pm

Sugar wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:44 am
Timo,
will Video Rendering come to Cubase as well? It's one of those features with a universal appeal for both music production and post.
As a film composer I don't really need any of the postproduction workflows, but I do need the Edit Mode, Multi-branch Undo, Advanced Crossfade editor and... Video Rendering.
Hello,

I cannot promise that all video rendering functions will make it into Cubase. It is too early to have a comment on that.
Well, some of the features you listed are heavily used in post-production ;-)

Thanks,
Timo
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Re: Cubase 9.5 Features in Nuendo 8 - When?

Post by In_Stereo » Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:11 pm

TimoWildenhain wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:59 pm
Hello,

I cannot promise that all video rendering functions will make it into Cubase. It is too early to have a comment on that.
Well, some of the features you listed are heavily used in post-production ;-)

Thanks,
Timo
Therein lies the issue for us composers, Timo. Composers need features like the ones he mentioned, but Nuendo is always far behind Cubase with features for music, features that help us greatly. I hope Steinberg can reconcile this problem in some way, because it's very tiring for some of us.
Last edited by In_Stereo on Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cubase 9.5 Features in Nuendo 8 - When?

Post by umfufu » Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:01 pm

Meanwhile, an update on me, the original poster. About 6 weeks ago I bit the bullet and 'switched' to Cubase Pro. I am happy with my decision and only miss a few things about Nuendo (namely Edit Mode, exporting individual files from the timeline, etc), but feel that the trade off for the new features in Cubase are worth it for me. The features I miss are useful for scoring to picture, for music, and just useful workflow things in general. It always makes me a little mad and resentful when I realize that a feature is missing in Cubase and that I effectively have to make a decision as to which features I get when using a Steinberg product (up-to-date composing features, and more recent stability fixes, vs more fully featured audio workflow). Steinberg, it is a bad business model to make customers resentful when using your products. We shouldn't have to settle. I am willing to pay for a premium product that has it all, but that is not how you treat Nuendo IMHO.

But regardless, if I hadn't switched, and was still waiting on the Nuendo update to provide even the stability enhancements that Cubase has had for a long time now, I'd be pretty upset.

Yours.
B
Last edited by umfufu on Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cubase 9.5 Features in Nuendo 8 - When?

Post by In_Stereo » Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:08 pm

Perfectly said, umfufu. My switch to Cubase/Nuendo (well, a trial of Nuendo that I ditched once seeing it didn't have some of the great newer features of Cubase) from PT over two years has been great in some ways and disappointing in others -- this being one of them. We'll see where I end up landing.
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Re: Cubase 9.5 Features in Nuendo 8 - When?

Post by DaniDonadi » Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:07 am

I couldn't say it better umfufu, I feel the same way.

Thank you
Dani
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Re: Cubase 9.5 Features in Nuendo 8 - When?

Post by umfufu » Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:36 am

The idea that people fall neatly into certain camps ("post-production" vs "music") is a flawed one to me, as I am both a professional composer and sound designer. And more importantly, the idea that certain features are useful for only one of these camps is even more flawed (i.e. something as simple as Edit Mode being only useful for post production is simply wrong, and musicians might want to write for VR/360 videos and therefore might need as many surround channels as Nuendo, for example).

The delineation between Nuendo and Cubase only works if there's a way to buy the whole package, that is top-of-the-line, complete, and up-to-date. This is what Nuendo is supposed to be (at least that's been my understanding for the decade that I'd been using it), but Nuendo still doesn't have music features that Cubase has had for two update cycles, let alone the maintenance updates. If Nuendo is not all of those things then the whole conceit tumbles like a house of cards and we're left feeling like certain features are simple 'locked-out' of Cubase Pro for no apparent reason, or that Nuendo is not thought of by Steinberg as top of the line.
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