[BUG] No input monitoring when recording an External Source.

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Helidream
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[BUG] No input monitoring when recording an External Source.

Post by Helidream » Tue May 22, 2018 6:56 pm

When recording an external source inside an audio track (selecting the Ext source in the track routing), there is no input monitoring available, if ASIO direct monitoring is switched on.

When the track input button is switched on, there is no audio signal, and no input metering available.

But the audio is recorded.

This mean that Nuendo does not transmit the ASIO direct monitoring information to the audio interface for external inputs.

Something that prove that this is a bug and not normal behavior is that the channel input is muted. This is the normal behavior when ASIO direct input is active on a Nuendo channel.
So this mean that only half of the ASIO function is working for external inputs : channel input is muted, but the interface is not switched to direct monitoring and does not send its level metering to the Nuendo channel.


When disabling ASIO direct monitoring, audio input and metering is available again.

Last, if the same physical inputs are routed to a Nuendo input, and this input selected as the track routing source, then ASIO direct monitoring works normally.

This show that there is a problem with ASIO direct monitoring for external inputs. Probably the ASIO direct monitoring switching code is simply missing for external inputs.
Comps+OS: PC Intel Core i7 six core 's - X79 Chipset - 256 Go SATA SSD - 1 To SATA Hard disk, 16 Go RAM - Win 7 Pro 64 Dual 27" monitors - AMD Firepro V7900 video card - Nuendo 8.2.0.
MR816csx - UR44 - MOTU 828 mkIII audio interfaces - Control surfaces : JLCooper MCS3800 (mixing) - AKAI AFX + Midi translator Pro (monitoring) - Rogers LS3/5a proximity monitors.
Sony PCM-7040 DAT - TASCAM HD-P2 recorder - PTV PT5210 Digital sync generator - Steinberg Timebase - Adam Smith ZETA3 synchronizers.
Lindos LA100 audio analyzer, HP 5372A frequency and time interval analyzer, Siglent SDG2042X signal generator - Tektronix TDS5000 scope - Efratom 10 MHz rubidium clock - HP Z3816A GPS frequency standard.

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Fredo
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Re: [BUG] No input monitoring when recording an External Source.

Post by Fredo » Wed May 23, 2018 7:40 am

That is very normal behaviour.
When ASIO Direct monitoring is enabled, the audio signal (what we hear) is the signal *before* it reaches the DAW.
So you are "listening" directly to the input source on the audio card. Hence why there is no latency.
External Sources are routed *within* the DAW, so only the output reaches the Audio card.

Fredo

Helidream
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Re: [BUG] No input monitoring when recording an External Source.

Post by Helidream » Wed May 23, 2018 8:44 am

Hum, i don't think so.

External input sources are routed within the DAW but their physical input is on the same audio interface as other inputs. This mean that they can get the same direct monitoring capability, they can be sent internally by the audio interface to the monitoring bus for input monitoring, the same as other inputs.

The only difference for those inputs is that they go through the Control Room section to allow direct listening on the monitor buses and cues.

So i think that there is no reason that direct input monitoring does not work for External inputs when they are routed to an audio track. If there is one, let me know where is the technical difficulty.

More, as i said in my previous message, the direct monitoring feature is partially implemented on an audio track with an external input at its input routing selection. This is not normal :

When enabling the input monitoring button on a track with an External input, Nuendo mute the track channel input, this is the normal behavior with an ASIO direct monitoring track channel (this is to avoid getting both direct and through the DAW monitor at the same time).

This show that Nuendo wants this channel to be managed like an ASIO Direct monitoring input, but forget to send the ASIO direct monitoring command to the Audio interface to get the monitoring of this input through the interface dsp mixer.

If this were a behavior (no ASIO direct monitoring for an External input), the channel should be managed like a non ASIO direct monitored channel (could be ok for external inputs) : then the channel input must not be muted when the track input button is enabled.


So there is two possibility to get a correct behavior :

1) allow ASIO direct monitoring on Ext inputs : correct the code to send the ASIO direct monitoring command to the interface

2) do not allow ASIO direct monitoring on Ext inputs : correct the code to not mute the channel input when pressing the track monitoring button, and do not sent the ASIO direct monitoring commands to the interface.


Actually, as i said in the previous post, input monitoring for an External input is not possible when ASIO direct monitoring is enabled. This is not normal.


Try it with a direct ASIO enabled interface (i suppose that it's the same problem with Dante hardware), you will see that there is a problem here.
Comps+OS: PC Intel Core i7 six core 's - X79 Chipset - 256 Go SATA SSD - 1 To SATA Hard disk, 16 Go RAM - Win 7 Pro 64 Dual 27" monitors - AMD Firepro V7900 video card - Nuendo 8.2.0.
MR816csx - UR44 - MOTU 828 mkIII audio interfaces - Control surfaces : JLCooper MCS3800 (mixing) - AKAI AFX + Midi translator Pro (monitoring) - Rogers LS3/5a proximity monitors.
Sony PCM-7040 DAT - TASCAM HD-P2 recorder - PTV PT5210 Digital sync generator - Steinberg Timebase - Adam Smith ZETA3 synchronizers.
Lindos LA100 audio analyzer, HP 5372A frequency and time interval analyzer, Siglent SDG2042X signal generator - Tektronix TDS5000 scope - Efratom 10 MHz rubidium clock - HP Z3816A GPS frequency standard.

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Fredo
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Re: [BUG] No input monitoring when recording an External Source.

Post by Fredo » Wed May 23, 2018 10:07 am

Listening to the EXT input allows you to monitor the incoming signal.
Listening to the track input (set to EXT input) (which is fed by "Control Room/Ext input" - so passing through the DAW) will not give you ASIO direct monitoring.
The Listen button on each track listens to the physical input of the audio card.
So, if you change the track input to the Physical input of your External Source (thereby NOT passing through Control Room), you will have ASIO DM.
Sorry if you disagree, but this is the way ASIO DM works. You can always ask a second opinion if you don't believe me.

As a solution, you can fiddle around in TotalMix (if you are on RME), which is an additional layer of mixing/routing *directly on the Sound Card* (thus inbetween Sound Card & DAW), or you can just listen to the "EXT Input" that you are trying to record.

Fredo

Helidream
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Re: [BUG] No input monitoring when recording an External Source.

Post by Helidream » Wed May 23, 2018 4:57 pm

The Listen button on each track listens to the physical input of the audio card.
So, if you change the track input to the Physical input of your External Source (thereby NOT passing through Control Room), you will have ASIO DM.
Yes you are right here.

As a remark you can't choose the physical input in the track routing if it's assigned to an Ext Input. You need to first unassign the Ext input to be able to create a Nuendo input with the same physical input.

Next, External input or not, this is the same physical inputs on the interface. So i do not see why ASIO direct monitoring would not work with an External Input, when those inputs are routed to a track.

Ext Input are just the same thing as normal inputs, except that they are inevitably routed to the control room for listening purpose. Like with normal Nuendo inputs, you can choose them as a source in an audio track.
Listening to the EXT input allows you to monitor the incoming signal.
Yes, but this is not the same thing. If you do that, you will not be able to listen to other tracks playing at the same time.

Sometimes it's desirable to listen to an external input at the same time as the mix. In this case you need to monitor the mix, and assign the external input to a track input.

Imagine that you have a Timecode DAT player connected to the External Input or something similar like a digital 1/4" tape machine or a portable recorder with timecode support, and you want to check that it is chasing correctly the mix. Then if you switch to Ext Input monitoring in the control room, you loose the mix listening.

The actual solution is to disable ASIO direct monitoring, or do not use an External input but a normal input.

But for simplicity, i feel that external recorders are better connected to Ext Inputs, because you can listen to them directly, and you are sure that there is no level modification or sound modification (no fader, no EQ, no plugins... etc). Another advantage is that it does not take room in the mixer (a normal Nuendo input is creating an input mixer channel).

I'm ok with you on the way ASIO direct monitoring work, but i see no reason to not have it working for external inputs, because in the end external inputs are physical inputs, they just go to the control room. I feel that nothing prevent them to work in ASIO direct monitoring mode, if they are selected in an audio track input routing.
Comps+OS: PC Intel Core i7 six core 's - X79 Chipset - 256 Go SATA SSD - 1 To SATA Hard disk, 16 Go RAM - Win 7 Pro 64 Dual 27" monitors - AMD Firepro V7900 video card - Nuendo 8.2.0.
MR816csx - UR44 - MOTU 828 mkIII audio interfaces - Control surfaces : JLCooper MCS3800 (mixing) - AKAI AFX + Midi translator Pro (monitoring) - Rogers LS3/5a proximity monitors.
Sony PCM-7040 DAT - TASCAM HD-P2 recorder - PTV PT5210 Digital sync generator - Steinberg Timebase - Adam Smith ZETA3 synchronizers.
Lindos LA100 audio analyzer, HP 5372A frequency and time interval analyzer, Siglent SDG2042X signal generator - Tektronix TDS5000 scope - Efratom 10 MHz rubidium clock - HP Z3816A GPS frequency standard.

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